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Post by dormouse on May 11, 2019 12:32:32 GMT
On thinking about the problem with books petering out rather than satisfying the readers effort, I thought about writing out of sequence. I've often considered it before, and done it occasionally, but it struck me that this might be a way of avoiding the problem. Depending on the writer's process. I semi-outline. I have a beatsheet spreadsheet (of my own devising). But any power comes from my detailed dreaming/imagining of individual scenes. They usually come to me with words and dialogues. They circle and develop in my mind over weeks, sometimes months. There's an element of deliberation and working it out but much of it just comes. And the ending is nearly always one of these scenes. So it occurred to me that, rather than writing in sequence, it might be better to write these scenes as they crystallise in my mind and do the filling in, adding other scenes later. I had also noticed the Writing & Tao book on the Humble list. I don't recommend the book, but I know a little about the Tao and the importance of removing obstacles to the flow. This made sense. If the flow was the imagining, then the obstacle is sticking to writing in sequence. The minute I decided to do that, there was excitement and an uplift in energy and desire to write (for me, this includes mapping out and other technique related stuff - not just writing the scenes). So looking good, but understandably output nil as yet.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on May 12, 2019 6:22:37 GMT
I have yet to finish any fiction which was written out of sequence. I have written nonfiction like that. It was a mess and I hated it. Felt like I was so out of control. But if you find it fun and enjoyable and more productive to write out of sequence then you should do it! To be fair, I hardly finish anything. I am still stuck on my mystery.
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Post by dormouse on May 12, 2019 8:25:51 GMT
I think we'll see. It's not my idea to write out of sequence, the idea is simply not to force myself to write in sequence if my mind is going in another direction. The sequence has to be done at some point. The idea is to grab the creative juices while they are flowing rather than giving me putting them aside for later.
One cost of plugging away purely in sequence is having to remember the detail of what I've imagined earlier. I have an excellent memory, so I'm not sure if that is a burden to me although it would be to some people (they probably use notepads etc anyway). Using notepads for out of sequence ideas, observations, phrases etc is almost the convention - I've just never had to do it, and maybe I should.
I do this for some non-fiction because it is easier. Often draft the end, which structures the middle and then tweak the end when I get there.
And that's an inevitable cost of being out of sequence. It always has to be rewritten in the light of everything that turns out to have gone before.
In this case, one other cost is that I have set up a structure so that all 15 volumes are semi-actively in my mind. For me it is one story not 15; I can break it into different books but it's only one story.
Another cost is working out what software will help me most. Writemonkey is very accommodating for the writing, but I think I'll have to park the scenes somewhere else to avoid them being lost; though maybe not, there's much more I need to learn about WM. I had thought about using Gingko; it makes out of sequence easy but the whole project would overwhelm it; I think. Most conventional writing apps would struggle because they are predicated on a single book at a time. Brings me back to databases, DoogiePIM, OneNote &etc.
Might work, might not. But if I'm trying to write one scene and my mind is filled with a scene three books away, then that is trying to tell me something.
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Post by dormouse on May 12, 2019 16:50:07 GMT
Software was an easy choice. WriteMonkey for the writing, OneNote for the storing. The text containers are perfect for this because they make no assumptions about sequence; much as I usually hate them.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on May 12, 2019 21:05:10 GMT
15 books is a lot, but I love that you’re writing it all at once. The series depth and continuity will be so much stronger. Do you have a series Bible? Out of sequence writing definitely requires a ton of rewriting. Detailed outlines help though so that you just have to fix the outline. That way is the easiest way to do it, for me.
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Post by dormouse on May 12, 2019 21:53:50 GMT
15 is incredibly daunting. I've never tackled anything that size before. I estimate 1.2-1.8 million words; 2.25 million if it gets away from me. OTOH it's not fixed in contract or stone: I can move it up or down; and up's not on the cards. And this number gives me a structure to work to. And it contains cycles and repeating patterns - a bit like a symphony - although I don't expect the reader to notice them (consciously anyway); I'm hoping they will help me with the pacing. But if I find I can write the story in fewer books, I will.
And I will be writing other things too.
I'm building the bible as I write (sometimes the writing comes first, sometimes the bible, sometimes I have to correct it as things change); I know I won't succeed without a systematic approach. That's why the obsessing about software; one justification anyway.
I have my spreadsheets, I have my outlines, though only partial. Sometimes I plan and outline, sometimes the plan is subverted and changed as it is written, and sometimes scenes run through my head, out of order, without me trying to think about them at all. Also there are elements and threads that I haven't put in yet - not even in the outline. I know they're there, but they are not worked up, and I've not imagined anything detailed about them yet. They will have to be weaved in later. If they come to me when I'm doing first draft, I'll add them there; if not, I'll add them after first draft but before second.
As I say it's a single story. It has a beginning, a middle, and an end. A long beginning, a longer middle, and a long end.
And as the Tao says "A journey of thousand miles starts with a single step."
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on May 15, 2019 4:51:08 GMT
I wish you much productivity, tenacity, & writing strength to accomplish all of your writing goals! It's good that you have other projects you can work on in-between so you don't burn yourself out. Burnout is real and nothing to be toyed with at all.
I have always struggled with sticking to long term goals. I always admire people who are able to get an idea and hold onto it forever!
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Post by dormouse on May 18, 2019 17:26:24 GMT
Thank you. I have a low key approach. It's just a plan. I have lots of plans. They rarely work out as intended, but they make adjusting to circumstances much easier. The original idea was that this would be a simple, shortish piece of work that would help clear my mind. The bigger plan was that I was coming to the end of a huge project and wanted something smallish while I planned out other projects. As it turned out, that large project lasted much longer than anticipated (a fair bit of time was freed up, but I'd already filled that with other projects) and then I had a health issue (resolved) that stopped a lot of work for a year or so. So that didn't work out either. But none of that mattered: old plan out, new plan in. Agree completely about avoiding burn out risk. Easy to do working for yourself; quite easy otherwise too. Some people can manage a high burn rate. I'm happiest with quite a high burn rate - but I need a range of different activities. I always knew I couldn't just write full time, so I never have. Nor could I cope with only one writing project at a time; I know I'm not a fast writer, but it's still best for me to slow myself further with multiple projects.
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Post by writeway on May 21, 2019 10:45:17 GMT
I can't write out of sequence. I like to write in order plus I outline and it does the trick for me. I used to be a pantser but been outlining about five years now. It's been a lifesaver. LOL!
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Post by dormouse on May 21, 2019 14:34:44 GMT
I like to write in order plus I outline Me too, really: that's what I like. I've always been a planner, with an occasional bit of pantsing if I get stuck. Still am. But my imagination ranges across the whole plot, more often in planning phases than writing, apparently at random. I have in the past just stuck it into the outline at an appropriate point, but, when it comes with phrasing, dialogue, setting and description, it feels as if I'm losing some of my own creativity by doing that. So all I'm going to do when it happens now is to write it as an out of sequence scene. It's not a deliberate creative strategy, but I seem to have no control on what part of the story my mind fixes on at any point in time (it also happens with non-fiction, so it's not about the story , it is about the way my mind works creatively - other people probably function differently).
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Post by davidvandyke on Jun 3, 2019 18:59:19 GMT
I brought this up in on of the other forums. There was a lively discussion for a while. My idea was that the first book in a series is the one where you "find your feet" and it's often an origins story (unless you reserve that for a prequel).
So imagine a crime series. Maybe write the detective's 3rd case you intend to write, and then, after that's done and you've gotten more comfortable within the setting, write the 2nd, then the 1st. Then do a thorough scrub for plot holes or errors, and launch the series with those 3 books.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jun 4, 2019 0:28:31 GMT
I've always felt that the best way to have a superior series is to write the entire series before you publish because as you're plotting inevitably new and better ideas will come to you. And when you're publishing as you go when these new ideas come up, you either have to retcon old scenes/characters, or you create new characters that become really popular and you or your readers think how much better the series would be if that character had been around earlier.
So if you're writing the whole series at once you can write it in any order that it comes to you, allowing the story to get better and better each time you sit down. Sometimes you might have no idea how to write a certain scene or solve a certain problem, but if you're publishing as you go then you have to hurry, hurry, hurry to think of something. And it's not until you've written something else much later that you realize how that earlier scene should have gone, but now it's too late.
But if you were writing all at once, as the story came, you would have simply skipped that scene, and gone on ahead until you got your answer.
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Post by dormouse on Jun 4, 2019 20:36:07 GMT
So imagine a crime series. Maybe write the detective's 3rd case you intend to write, and then, after that's done and you've gotten more comfortable within the setting, write the 2nd, then the 1st. Then do a thorough scrub for plot holes or errors, and launch the series with those 3 books. That makes sense. Actually seems like a good writing sequence
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Post by dormouse on Jun 4, 2019 20:38:33 GMT
I've always felt that the best way to have a superior series is to write the entire series before you publish because as you're plotting inevitably new and better ideas will come to you. ... So if you're writing the whole series at once you can write it in any order that it comes to you, allowing the story to get better and better each time you sit down. ... But if you were writing all at once, as the story came, you would have simply skipped that scene, and gone on ahead until you got your answer. This makes complete sense to me too
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Post by dormouse on Jun 4, 2019 20:46:01 GMT
Having decided that would do this, I have just found myself writing in sequence. Even ploughing through a scene that was hard because I hadn't imagined it properly. Pantsed it in effect, although I di have it set out in my outline.
Until today, when I started writing a scene that had just fleshed itself out in my mind. But it isn't genuinely out of sequence. It isn't in a sequence. The character doesn't exist anywhere in the planning; I don't know where he/they will fit in or what they will do. If that comes to me then I'll have somewhere to put it; if not, it will have to be left out. Still it was written (though not finished yet), and I felt fine doing it.
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Post by Jeff Tanyard on Jun 5, 2019 4:56:31 GMT
I've always felt that the best way to have a superior series is to write the entire series before you publish
I agree. Unfortunately, that method requires a lot of time and patience. If George Lucas had done it that way, we'd still be waiting for the first Star Wars movie to hit the theaters.
On the other hand, Tolkien spent decades on The Lord of the Rings, and even when he had finished it, he went back and rewrote the whole thing. And it paid off handsomely. It's my favorite novel by far, and it's consistently ranked by the British as their favorite, too.
But do we have that kind of time and patience? I know I don't. I outlined my whole space opera series before writing book 1, but I'm publishing the books as I write them.
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Post by dormouse on Jun 6, 2019 11:02:47 GMT
I've always felt that the best way to have a superior series is to write the entire series before you publish do we have that kind of time and patience? I know I don't Forum posts widely imply that there are a lot of writers at full stretch with their word count simply to generate the income that allows them to continue writing. They may not have much choice. And more successful writers who trained themselves into that system, may no longer have the option of doing it differently. But many can. Any writer with a system that has the potential for some free days has the option of a new project composed in toto before publishing. Even if it takes years to get there. Writers with a profitable backlist also have the option. As do those who have had a big hit. And not forgetting those with other jobs and other incomes. That's just the money, of course. The patience is a different thing completely. And the ability to revise, revise and rewrite.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jun 6, 2019 21:05:03 GMT
It's probably not realistic for most writers to write their entire series before publishing, it's more of a "in a perfect world" scenario. Plus, not everyone intends to write a series. They write one book, publish it, then it's so popular they decide to turn it into a series. If you need money now then doing this would only be feasible if you are also publishing lots of other things as you go. And yeah, it can be tough to stick to just one project for a long period of time, plus life happens, etc, so publishing as you go will reward you with more products on the market. And possibly works being sent into the world that never would be otherwise. So ya know, do what you can, what you need, and be happy. With TMOK, it will be a series of trilogies, so planning out and writing an entire trilogy before publishing isn't so bad as if I was writing it all as one sixty-book saga. I don't have enough years left probably to do that. But then I'm all over the place with a zillion other things I want to try and do to make money, so who knows if I'll ever even get to TMOK. So in a perfect world I most certainly do not live, but I keep hoping anyway.
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Post by dormouse on Jun 8, 2019 16:17:15 GMT
Plus, not everyone intends to write a series. They write one book, publish it, then it's so popular they decide to turn it into a series. I think this is the most common scenario. I have somewhat worked up plans for one myself. When written, I could publish one at a time or write 2 or 3 and then publish, only writing more if the take up is good. The 15 book 'series' I've mentioned isn't like that. It's a single story I can compose as 15 books. The trilogies split easily and a reader will be able to start any and go from there. The individual books will be technically hard to do so that they can be read as standalones, but that's what I intend to achieve; I won't be comfortable publishing unless I believe I have accomplished it. It's complicated by the fact that the MC in trilogies 2-5 is not the MC in trilogy 1. The first ideas I had that led to the plan did start with only one MC. I could revert to that if necessary. Both ways have advantages and disadvantages and for the moment I feel that have a separate MC for trilogy 1 will work best. But wouldn't be hard to rewrite.
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Post by dormouse on Jun 8, 2019 16:22:21 GMT
I'd like to say that I'm getting more words done since opening up to writing out of sequence. And I have. But I think that it is probably more about the availability of time to write. I do have time to write, but it has to fit around other demands. What it has definitely done is to educe the barriers when sitting down.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jun 8, 2019 19:51:08 GMT
Plus, not everyone intends to write a series. They write one book, publish it, then it's so popular they decide to turn it into a series. I think this is the most common scenario. I have somewhat worked up plans for one myself. When written, I could publish one at a time or write 2 or 3 and then publish, only writing more if the take up is good. The 15 book 'series' I've mentioned isn't like that. It's a single story I can compose as 15 books. The trilogies split easily and a reader will be able to start any and go from there. The individual books will be technically hard to do so that they can be read as standalones, but that's what I intend to achieve; I won't be comfortable publishing unless I believe I have accomplished it. It's complicated by the fact that the MC in trilogies 2-5 is not the MC in trilogy 1. The first ideas I had that led to the plan did start with only one MC. I could revert to that if necessary. Both ways have advantages and disadvantages and for the moment I feel that have a separate MC for trilogy 1 will work best. But wouldn't be hard to rewrite. I think it's okay to have different main characters, as long as something of the old remains to connect the series and both main characters are interesting and fun to read about. I had one ten-book series plan where many of the books had completely different characters and took place in completely different places, they all connect later in other books, and one full story is being told. If this series ends up making the TMOK cut I don't know if that structure will remain or not.
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Post by proofreadexcelsior on Jun 11, 2019 21:37:51 GMT
If I get stuck on one part, I'll move onto a later one. But I usually put everything in order. I've found that outlining the plot really helps
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