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Post by writeway on Jan 1, 2019 23:59:28 GMT
May I vent? I've been a lurker on there for years but I think today I am done even going back there. There is still a stench of hypocrisy and arrogance when it comes to self-publishing. It's better than it used to be but seems like every time someone even alludes to self-publishing as a positive option you still have someone popping up downing it and saying why they would never self-publish. Then the list all these stereotypical, misguided and outright incorrect statements about being indie. And it's like they refuse to see they are wrong. There also too many people who try to bait you into the indie vs. trade thing and that's beyond old. If you question anything about trade publishing or say anything besides it's great you still get those defenders who can't take other people's opinions. I think it's pathetic and sad how so many of them would rather not ever be published than to try another option. The same people have been on that site for years whining about not getting a deal or agent yet they want to act like they know everything. How in this day and age anyone hasn't adjusted their thinking is beyond me. I don't get the arrogance of some of the members there. Some are very nice and okay people but you got those who still look down their noses at anyone who doesn't want to trade publish or who picked another route. I'd rather self-publish and make some money than sit around like some of them for 10+ years begging for a deal many will never get. They also are so backwards. Many know nothing about self-publishing but hand out bad advice. They keep saying it's expensive or stupid stuff like they don't want to be a marketer and just write. Well, newsflash, even if you publish with a publisher you will have to promote and market! They still got the snowflake syndrome that someone is going to do the work for them. As for just wanting to write, all writers most likely would want to just write but that's not the world we're living in. I don't care how you publish, unless you're a big name no one is going to push your book for you. You're gonna have to do something. I've been with publishers, I know how they work. The most the average trade author will get is being some midlister who if lucky might get a teeny advance, no push and all they have to look forward to is getting paid a couple dollars every six months IF they earn royalties that period. Yet they think that route gives them the best shot? Please. I think it goes back to some authors being too lazy to want to learn how to do things and some who are afraid of what folks will say if they go indie. At least you won't be sitting there begging for an agent to spit on you while having a bunch of trunked novels in your closet. But it's a joke over there and I'm done. I liked helping those who wanted help but there were too many snobs still hanging around yet they haven't published a darn thing. I just don't see the need to be rude like some of them are. And they actually had the nerve to invite Kboards authors there. Please! Why? To treat them like crap? No thanks. I'll stick with my fellow indies and our communities, thank you very much. That board will be obsolete one day when more and more people wise up. I think they are rude because they are bitter because they can't get deals. Sorry, I got a bit heated because it's sad they are still like that over there and they run good indie authors away from the board.
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cate
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Post by cate on Jan 2, 2019 2:06:25 GMT
I couldn't agree more, writeway.
I found AW years ago, and made the mistake of giving advice. I got the side eye, and the whole "who do you think you are, newbie, giving advice to one of US?" Gosh, I don't know - maybe because they asked for advice, and I've been writing for most of my life?
That soured me pretty quickly, and I left, not even thinking about the place for years. I went back, when I was looking for an author to trade beta reads. I lucked out, and found someone who became a friend and RT conference roomie. But that was it for me. I peeked in other parts of the forum and noped right out when I saw the same old BS being flung.
It's not even on my radar now, unless someone mentions it on another forum.
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Post by writeway on Jan 2, 2019 3:24:54 GMT
Thanks for chiming in, Cate. I don't think the people behind AW realize the disgust many have for it because of how authors are allowed to be mistreated there. AW's reputation is mud and a joke, Most people I know can't stand the place and wouldn't go there if you paid them. What's really sad is the mods seem to encourage this. Back in the day they'd pop in with their own snide, bias remarks against self-publishers but now they don't even show up. You can't even find a mod these days. I feel sorry for the indies on there who think AW is the place to be. When I could, I always suggested other sites and forums to go to that were pro-indie. I only chimed in to help other indies because as I said, the info they get from the others there is so pitiful. I didn't want new indies to be misinformed and take AW's opinions as gospel when the place knows zilch about self-publishing. Why do they even have that SP section? They obviously don't see the value in anything outside trade nor do they seem to respect self-publish authors. Also, the place is so depressing. All they do is sit around and whine about not getting published and how to do a query letter. It's the same folks that's been on there for years. If you haven't gotten published in all this time maybe you just suck. What will it take for them to get some guts and see if they can make something happen on their own? I guess they'll be on AW forever, bitter, unpublished, misguided and nasty. While indies (even though the snobs at AW don't wanna admit) most likely are making way more money, building readership, and making names for themselves. One thing they really don't like is when an indie has been successful. Oh, man. Mention any type of success with a SP book and they go crazy. They either wanna call you an outlier (and these indies are not selling millions, just doing way better than the average trade author) or they wanna poo-poo your accomplishments. You can tell it's jealousy. Yep, I am SO done with that joke of a place. I just wonder how many decades can people chase agents and pubs before realizing, it ain't happening?
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cate
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Post by cate on Jan 2, 2019 12:57:09 GMT
You hit it dead on - they are chasing a dream. One they no longer need to have, with self publishing as an option. I tried the trad route, and hated every part of the process. Once I read about self pub, I jumped in and never looked back. Because they see publishing with one of the big 5 as the only real way, they will run on their little hamster wheel, their books never leaving their hard drive.
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Post by dormouse on Jan 2, 2019 14:58:48 GMT
I think I visited AW once (did I register? Can't remember). I don't understand any sort of writer war between indie and trade. There were always different options in trade (small vs mid vs big 5 vs specialist); indie is a huge extra. Why would you not try to exploit them all? I would only consider a trade route for some of the stuff I do - they have the market tied up & print is a major component; and some of that I would only start if I were commissioned. For some I'd prefer big 5, but would go indie if I didn't believe they'd push it hard enough. For others, I'd be indie all the way.
I never got into it myself, but I think some of these folk should take up fishing. You cast your line and wait. Then pull it in and cast again. Again and again. Sometimes you might catch a tiddler. Sometimes you catch a big fish. And sometimes it gets away. If you don't enjoy the process, it's not worth it. And if you spy a better spot, you take it if it's vacant. And you never get into a big queue for your preferred bank if there's space on the other.
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Post by writeway on Jan 2, 2019 19:25:08 GMT
You hit it dead on - they are chasing a dream. One they no longer need to have, with self publishing as an option. I tried the trad route, and hated every part of the process. Once I read about self pub, I jumped in and never looked back. Because they see publishing with one of the big 5 as the only real way, they will run on their little hamster wheel, their books never leaving their hard drive. When I started you had to go for trade publishing because KDP didn't even exist and ebooks were around but hadn't taken off hardly at all. If I was a new writer today, NO WAY would I go trade. Hell no! I have made more self-publishing than I ever did make with a publisher. Plus I get paid much faster, have control, and I don't have to worry about someone dictating my stories. I can do whatever I want. You can't put a price on that freedom. I LOVE being indie and can't see myself ever going with a pub again. I have no desire to. But yeah, here we are in 2019 with all these options and tools to publish our work and folks wanna stay on the hamster wheel. It has to be about validation or some hopeless dream that they will be famous one day. Ha! Do they understand that when it comes to making money, trade authors are at the bottom of the barrel. Some make poverty figures if you look at it. It's sad that they get paid those peanuts but that's why they need to wake up. I'm not saying it's all about money but if you work hard, don't you want to make the most you can? I'm not rich or close to it but I make more than I would with a publisher and I would have to do all my promotion and marketing anyway! And, I am not saying trade doesn't make sense at times. I have no issues with people wanting to go trade if they want to do it. My issue is when those people who aren't even published, never been published, and they look down on others who choose to do it themselves. THAT'S my issue. It's not that I care they wanna be on the hamster wheel (though it wouldn't be me this day and age ) but it's that they often don't respect others who who decide they want to take matters into their own hands. It's all about respect or lack of it. I think a lot of it is fear from some people that's why they need to hang out in the SP circles and they will see there is nothing to be afraid of. The indie community is the most helpful I've seen and always lend a hand but if you are too afraid to try then...
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Post by writeway on Jan 2, 2019 19:28:40 GMT
I think I visited AW once (did I register? Can't remember). I don't understand any sort of writer war between indie and trade. There were always different options in trade (small vs mid vs big 5 vs specialist); indie is a huge extra. Why would you not try to exploit them all? I would only consider a trade route for some of the stuff I do - they have the market tied up & print is a major component; and some of that I would only start if I were commissioned. For some I'd prefer big 5, but would go indie if I didn't believe they'd push it hard enough. For others, I'd be indie all the way. I never got into it myself, but I think some of these folk should take up fishing. You cast your line and wait. Then pull it in and cast again. Again and again. Sometimes you might catch a tiddler. Sometimes you catch a big fish. And sometimes it gets away. If you don't enjoy the process, it's not worth it. And if you spy a better spot, you take it if it's vacant. And you never get into a big queue for your preferred bank if there's space on the other. I don't get the trade vs. indie thing either. It's silly and instead of fighting over how people choose to publish we should be supporting one another. Self-published or trade we're all authors. With AW is like many refuse to see anything good about self-publishing. They still see it as a last resort or something people do when they can't get published. I tried to explain a few weeks ago that the majority of indie authors now go indie from the beginning and aren't interested in publishers. Yet, they wanna believe that the ultimate dream is the big five. It might be for them but not everyone. At least they can just respect a difference in opinion and stop pushing indie authors away. They have a lot they could bring to that site but unfortunately they've been run away by snobbery and condescension.
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Post by writeway on Jan 2, 2019 19:34:29 GMT
I think I visited AW once (did I register? Can't remember). I don't understand any sort of writer war between indie and trade. There were always different options in trade (small vs mid vs big 5 vs specialist); indie is a huge extra. Why would you not try to exploit them all? I would only consider a trade route for some of the stuff I do - they have the market tied up & print is a major component; and some of that I would only start if I were commissioned. For some I'd prefer big 5, but would go indie if I didn't believe they'd push it hard enough. For others, I'd be indie all the way. I never got into it myself, but I think some of these folk should take up fishing. You cast your line and wait. Then pull it in and cast again. Again and again. Sometimes you might catch a tiddler. Sometimes you catch a big fish. And sometimes it gets away. If you don't enjoy the process, it's not worth it. And if you spy a better spot, you take it if it's vacant. And you never get into a big queue for your preferred bank if there's space on the other. I don't get the trade vs. indie thing either. It's silly and instead of fighting over how people choose to publish we should be supporting one another. Self-published or trade we're all authors. With AW is like many refuse to see anything good about self-publishing. They still see it as a last resort or something people do when they can't get published. I tried to explain a few weeks ago that the majority of indie authors now go indie from the beginning and aren't interested in publishers. Yet, they wanna believe that the ultimate dream is the big five. It might be for them but not everyone. At least they can just respect a difference in opinion and stop pushing indie authors away. Indies have a lot they could bring to that site but unfortunately they've been run away by snobbery and condescension proving they really don't want us there.
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Post by davidvandyke on Jan 3, 2019 16:38:50 GMT
Logic and reason doesn't enter into it. Everyone but the newbies there are in it for the Eeyore-style emotional support, everyone sitting around and commiserating about their failures.
They don't want to succeed, for to succeed would be to lose their emotional support group. It's the same old self-sabotage and resistance to success I see in the traditional, local writer's groups I talk to. I get 90% "oh, that's interesting, but I could never do that" or somesuch, 10% enthusiasm, and 1% who actually contact me later and try to do something to break out of their rut. And who knows what they say about me behind my back, eh? It's much more comfortable to stay in that rut with your buddies, like the stereotypical blue-collar bar in a factory town where nobody ever leaves--and if they do, they become a different creature.
They're a bunch of snooty buggy enthusiasts closing ranks in the face of those newfangled horseless carriages, unwilling to face reality and bemoaning the slow death of their dreams but unwilling to find new ones. I'm a natural helper to anyone who asks for help with good will, but I'm less and less willing to throw my pearls before swine as time goes on. Let that cesspool rot. Those with some drive, spine and imagination will escape. There's plenty of info out there if someone simply tries to find it.
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Post by writeway on Jan 3, 2019 19:37:31 GMT
Logic and reason doesn't enter into it. Everyone but the newbies there are in it for the Eeyore-style emotional support, everyone sitting around and commiserating about their failures. They don't want to succeed, for to succeed would be to lose their emotional support group. It's the same old self-sabotage and resistance to success I see in the traditional, local writer's groups I talk to. I get 90% "oh, that's interesting, but I could never do that" or somesuch, 10% enthusiasm, and 1% who actually contact me later and try to do something to break out of their rut. And who knows what they say about me behind my back, eh? It's much more comfortable to stay in that rut with your buddies, like the stereotypical blue-collar bar in a factory town where nobody ever leaves--and if they do, they become a different creature. They're a bunch of snooty buggy enthusiasts closing ranks in the face of those newfangled horseless carriages, unwilling to face reality and bemoaning the slow death of their dreams but unwilling to find new ones. I'm a natural helper to anyone who asks for help with good will, but I'm less and less willing to throw my pearls before swine as time goes on. Let that cesspool rot. Those with some drive, spine and imagination will escape. There's plenty of info out there if someone simply tries to find it. What you say makes sense, David. I never thought of it like that. I just couldn't understand why some people sit on a site for years and years, not getting anywhere and not even trying anything different. They're gluttons for punishment and need that empty "support" from the other snobs around them. If they were really writers who loved the craft, they'd try anything to get their work out there. I can understand if you wanna give trade a few years, fine. But some of those on AW have been there 10 plus years and it made no sense to me why anyone would waste their time for decades but your comment made me see it differently and you are probably right. I can't see another reason they are the way they are. I don't mind helping people when I can either but have no time for those too afraid to try especially when the old way isn't working. For example, I've known an author for years who keeps submitting to these small presses over and over. She refuses to even try going indie. She has been burned many times by either publishers closing or them not paying her royalties yet she is STILL sticking with small presses. I keep telling her these small presses can't do anything for her she can't for herself and it's not like she is making money! She isn't making anything because the pub overprices the books and don't promote beyond a few tweets. Might not even do that. I try to explain that her thoughts about self-publishing being too expensive and hard is not accurate once you learn. You don't have to be rich to self-publish! If so most of us wouldn't be doing it. In her case, she seems to be a snowflake where she wants people to do everything for her. She doesn't even promote her books and expect the pub to do everything. I always wonder what she'll do once she runs out of small presses to sub to. They're closing by the truckload.
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cate
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Post by cate on Jan 4, 2019 16:29:40 GMT
For so long, trad pub was the dream - and the only way. For me, the lack of control over any career they might grant me was frustrating, which is why I jumped in with both feet when I first read about self publishing. The chance to have my books available overrode any vanity of having a big 5 name on the spine. I work on my craft all the time, because this is my business. I am a writer and a publisher - if the publisher doesn't like the final product, it doesn't go on the shelf. And I'm one damn picky publisher. If I waited for a publisher to open their hallowed gates and allow me in, I'd probably still be waiting. Stewing in the pot of failure will leave them stuck, and I could probably go in another ten years, find the same people moaning over the same lack of progress in their "career." I'll happily "destroy my reputation as a Real Writer" to publish my books, my way, and enjoy a career that I built.
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Post by davidvandyke on Jan 5, 2019 1:14:57 GMT
For example, I've known an author for years who keeps submitting to these small presses over and over. She refuses to even try going indie. She has been burned many times by either publishers closing or them not paying her royalties yet she is STILL sticking with small presses. I keep telling her these small presses can't do anything for her she can't for herself and it's not like she is making money! She isn't making anything because the pub overprices the books and don't promote beyond a few tweets. Might not even do that. I try to explain that her thoughts about self-publishing being too expensive and hard is not accurate once you learn. You don't have to be rich to self-publish! If so most of us wouldn't be doing it. In her case, she seems to be a snowflake where she wants people to do everything for her. She doesn't even promote her books and expect the pub to do everything. I always wonder what she'll do once she runs out of small presses to sub to. They're closing by the truckload. Right now, her failure is not her own. She can tell herself she's a victim--and we all know how powerful the lure of victimhood can be. We've all seen people who make a lifetime out of playing the victim. It gets them sympathy and shifts the responsibility and fault onto others. If she took control of her situation, she faces the possibility of failure--her own failure, that she'd have to admit was her own. That's the way I see it. Misery loves company. It goes against primary logic to desire failure, but there's a deeper logic, because these people are actually deriving their self-worth from their own failures, and companionship from the failures of others. Like druggies who find themselves only hanging out with druggies, because only other druggies simply accept them and their failures without judging and critiquing. But as soon as you succeed, and judge, and critique, and master something, and want no part of that scene, you won't be welcome. Druggies and losers don't want healthy successful people to hang out with them, any more than they go hang out with healthy, successful people.
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Post by corabuhlert on Jan 5, 2019 6:24:11 GMT
I hung out on the fringes of the local literary scene for year, though I never really fit in, because I wrote the wrong genre, the wrong kind of stories, etc... Nonetheless, I was the voluntary sales manager at a literary mag, attended readings and events, organised book sales, etc... I suspect I'm personally responsible for selling half the print run of that magazine.
I also got a story or poem published on occasion, though less frequently than some others, because I wouldn't suck up to some of the assistant editors and - let's just say it as it is - wouldn't sleep with one particular dude who thought that being assistant editor was a great way to get girls. I strongly suspect that the editor in chief had (and probably still has to this day) zero idea of what was going on.
Then I decided to dip my toe into the indie waters. A bit later, with three or four indie titles out, I went to a reading in town, printed out some flyers about my books and took them along to put them on the book stall, the same book stall I had organised and manned so many times. And I was given the cold shoulder. I had put flyers for all sorts of events, books, records and other stuff on the book table over the years, but now they wouldn't even take mine. I never got the book premiere launch events with a reading in a cozy room in the city library with a huge fireplace either. Okay, maybe I would have gotten one, if I'd asked, but I never bothered, because they'd made it very clear what they thought of me and my indie books, whereas a small press chapbook with a print run of 200 is apparently still worth celebrating. I never get invited to read at any local festivals either.
By the time I left, I was already one of the top three earners in our writing group - and I had gotten there without winning any contests, unlike the other two. By now, I suspect I have outearned all of them except maybe the two writers from that group who got trad contracts. And I may well have outearned them as well. I definitely outearned the woman who was the top earner back then, because she'd once won 1000 EUR in a writing contest. In fact, most of the folks from back then probably aren't even writing anymore. At any rate, I haven heard or seen their names in years.
I still feel that the experiences I gained working for that little literary magazine was important and helped me both as a writer and an indie publisher. But I'm still pissed off at how they treated me like crap after all the time and work I poured into supporting them.
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Post by davidvandyke on Jan 5, 2019 20:21:32 GMT
Cora, your experiences mirror mine, though I was not as deep into the traditional scene as you. Once I went indie, I became a different sort of creature. I wasn't "one of them" anymore. And I realized that most of what that crowd did and still does was commiserating -- being miserable together. They reminded me of (forgive the stereotyping) a bunch of pensioners who all went to play the slots together at the local casino, and what happens when one of them actually wins a big jackpot--they'll find themselves ostracized, because actually winning big is not part of the social scene. Small wins are fine, but win big, and suddenly people see you differently, and the primary emotions toward someone who "rises above their station" tend to be negative.
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Post by corabuhlert on Jan 6, 2019 0:59:16 GMT
Small wins of the "approved" sort were okay such as getting a poem published in a non-paying magazine, getting a chapbook published by a micropress, winning 100 EUR in a certain poetry contest (and folks from our group almost always won, which meant that either no one entered the contest or the other entries were really, really bad). The woman who won 1000 EUR in a poetry contest was already on the edge of respectability and one guy from our group, who eventually got a paid staff position at a literary magazine, was suddenly ostracised by most of the others, which I totally ignored (after all, I had no problem with him) and kept talking to him when he showed up at events.
I haven't seen most people from that crowd in years now. Occasionally, when I see their names in the local literature newsletter I still subscribe to, they're still doing the same things they were doing ten years ago, still publishing poetry chapbooks with obscure small presses on occasion, still doing the same literary city walk, still sucking up to the few bigger names. Only one person has an actual career as a crime fiction writer. Others have vanished completely, including folks who actually had talent.
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Post by possiblyderanged on Jan 17, 2019 23:03:45 GMT
I think there's a kind of dream idea of what being a writer is. Like an artist, starving in a garret, one day they'll be famous. And dead... But famous, so that's good. I call it the Castle Effect. I mean, how hard did Richard Castle work at writing, yet he was wealthy, had a bestseller with every book, his agent and publisher did everything for him, and he could follow a hot detective around and solve real crimes. Wow, what a life!
People at AW have this kind of dream, that a publisher is going to take care of them and they can suffer for their art while living the good life. Anyone who thinks they can just publish a book and make money without paying their dues is the enemy. Best to kill their dream now, before they end up on a list somewhere making millions.
Me, I think it's more like Misery, where you write books and everyone loves you until you do something that one fan hates, and you end up with your feet smashed with a sledge hammer, fighting for your life.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jan 18, 2019 3:25:26 GMT
I think there's a kind of dream idea of what being a writer is. Like an artist, starving in a garret, one day they'll be famous. And dead... But famous, so that's good. I call it the Castle Effect. I mean, how hard did Richard Castle work at writing, yet he was wealthy, had a bestseller with every book, his agent and publisher did everything for him, and he could follow a hot detective around and solve real crimes. Wow, what a life! People at AW have this kind of dream, that a publisher is going to take care of them and they can suffer for their art while living the good life. Anyone who thinks they can just publish a book and make money without paying their dues is the enemy. Best to kill their dream now, before they end up on a list somewhere making millions. Me, I think it's more like Misery, where you write books and everyone loves you until you do something that one fan hates, and you end up with your feet smashed with a sledgehammer, fighting for your life. I totally root for the woman in Misery. I've never seen the whole thing, just a few scenes on YouTube, and I love Kathy Bates. But you kill off my favorite character I might break your legs, too, if given a chance. I certainly wouldn't mind living the Richard Castle dream. Beckett is soooo hot. I would pay to follow her around without getting arrested. *titters* But it's sad to waste away your life waiting for that opportunity to happen. (nods head)
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Post by writeway on Jan 25, 2019 22:48:15 GMT
I haven't been back there since I posted this and didn't intend on going but the evil little girl in me wanted to pop in today and see if they were whining about Loveswept being closed. They want to say trade publishing is the greatest above all else but every time something closes they are crying because it's one less place to run after. Anyway, you can't even get on their site. They apparently are having site/safety/certificate issues. It keeps saying the site isn't secure and won't let me get further no matter what browser I am in. I tell you, these wanna-be-trade authors who can't get big deals better wake up and smell the coffee. There probably won't be anymore small presses soon. Then what will they do since they look down on indie publishing so much? Just to clarify, I feel bad for the Loveswept authors. I don't wish anything bad on them or any author but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested in how the AW crew justifies going trade despite all these places closing.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jan 25, 2019 23:42:34 GMT
I got in by clicking on advanced in chrome and choosing to visit anyway. They just need to pay their https bill again. The same thing happened to Kboards a while ago. I couldn't find any love swept threads, but I didn't look super hard. (shakes head)
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Post by dormouse on Jan 25, 2019 23:48:49 GMT
There probably won't be anymore small presses soon. I must be out of some sort of loop here Just caught up with your Twitter link I don't see it as a small press. Just a RH relaunch of a previously failed imprint. Digital only isn't really that good a model.
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Post by writeway on Jan 26, 2019 4:55:49 GMT
I wasn't referring to LS as a small press. I mentioned both small presses AND imprints are closing, especially digital-only imprints. In a way these are like small presses because they don't get the same benefits as say if you had a print deal with Random House. They don't get the same type of marketing or even the same amount of money that say a regular RH imprint that deals in print does. From what I've heard digital only authors don't even get advances. Most likely if you are with RH's regular imprints, you're getting an advance no matter how pitiful it might be. Digital presses are the red-headed stepchildren of big houses IMO. Big houses started them to try to cash in on the ebook boom and compete with small e-publishers (when they were hot) but then the e-pubs got killed by indies, KU, and lower pricing and that's exactly what's happening to the big houses now. It's gotten so hard to sell romance that many of them are bypassing romance now unless you are a big seller. Agents and editors are even suggesting to clients who write trade romance to switch to women's fiction because it's an easier sell. Many of the trades are not buying romance and when they do it's only a few to fit into the publishing schedule.
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Post by dormouse on Jan 27, 2019 21:26:48 GMT
I agree that both small presses and imprints are closing. Small presses because it's stopped being a benevolent environment and many have neither the resources nor business capability to stay afloat. As has always been the case, except that many more have been set up over the last few decades because of reduced set up costs.
Agree with you about the digital imprints. When I look at LS, what I see is business from scratch, high costs, no USP, limited freedom of action and limited sales channels (I'm writing purely from a business perspective - can't comment on content) - probably wouldn't have been launched without big company hubris; might be capable of profitability with favourable winds, if they were lucky, but I would never have put money on it.
In the same segment you have Mills and Boon. Long-established, high brand loyalty, strong sales channels of their own - a business class act. I'm sure they have been suffering too as they lose higher margin sales to ebook format, and increased competition.
I don't know what AW thought of them, but I had always believed that no Mills and Boon writer considered themselves to have been "published", and that many Mills and Boon writers denied writing books for them.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jan 28, 2019 1:57:03 GMT
I don't know what AW thought of them, but I had always believed that no Mills and Boon writer considered themselves to have been "published", and that many Mills and Boon writers denied writing books for them. Wow! I'd heard the trad world could be snobby, but I didn't realize it was that bad!
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Post by dormouse on Jan 28, 2019 20:59:39 GMT
Wow! I'd heard the trad world could be snobby, but I didn't realize it was that bad! Snobbery is certainly part of it but not, I think, the only part. The snobbery is part of a hierarchical perspective that is still going strong. For AW its about trade publishing (someone striving, but not yet succeeding, to be trade published comes higher than anyone who self publishes?); for KB & WS it seems to be based on sales (with everyone deferring to 'big sellers'); or, alternatively, writing and producing as many books as possible. A similar view is visible in Little Women. But part of it was also hard-headed calculation. No-one writing books that they wanted to be taken by a big publisher would want it to be known that they wrote for Mills and Boon if they believed that would scupper their chances. Rather like genre writers now changing their pen name when they write in a different genre. And such publishers' attitudes need not be simply due to bias. If someone is known for rapid writing to a formula, are they really developing or undeveloping the skills required for carefully constructed literary works? This also is reflected in Little Women iirc. And there was no need for them to admit to it. The Mills and Boon brand was the indication of quality that the readers were looking for and the author name was a distinct second, so they could use any name that was agreeable to M&B.
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Post by possiblyderanged on Feb 18, 2019 20:14:37 GMT
Those chasing trad pub will have a contract, and we indies won't. That will show us! Of course, a lot more of us seem to be making some money with their writing, so I suppose we can drown our sorrows on our own dime.
I have no problem with people going the trad pub route. Good on them, forge their own path. But, they shouldn't have a problem with me doing my thing. I'm not hurting anyone by publishing my own work, so who cares what I do?
The self publishing forums on AW are a joke. You can even really ask questions, you're just supposed to "journal" your attempts to sell your books, and accept the pity from those who know better and wouldn't be caught dead doing it.
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Post by writeway on Feb 18, 2019 20:39:06 GMT
Those chasing trad pub will have a contract, and we indies won't. That will show us! Of course, a lot more of us seem to be making some money with their writing, so I suppose we can drown our sorrows on our own dime. I have no problem with people going the trad pub route. Good on them, forge their own path. But, they shouldn't have a problem with me doing my thing. I'm not hurting anyone by publishing my own work, so who cares what I do? The self publishing forums on AW are a joke. You can even really ask questions, you're just supposed to "journal" your attempts to sell your books, and accept the pity from those who know better and wouldn't be caught dead doing it. Possibly, it's all an act. I come from the trade world and let me tell you a lot of trade authors are jealous of indies. I was when I was in trade! I was jealous because indies can price in ways where they can compete. They can switch things up and plus I am a fast writer and trade slowed me down tremendously. Indies can get out work much faster and are paid much faster and often better. So while trade authors act like they think they are better, there are many who would love to go out on their own but don't have the guts. Some don't even wanna try. Anyway, I admit this might sound cruel but I sometimes love reading the rejection and dejection thread. Not that I like to take pleasure in anyway who isn't getting anywhere but it does tickle me sometimes when some of the same folks in that thread whining about not getting agents or not getting a deal (after 20 years of trying) are the same ones who look down on being indie. Honey, I would rather be indie and sell just 20 copies of a book than to have it hiding in some drawer somewhere because I couldn't get Miss NYC Agent to even sneeze in my direction. It's pathetic how some writers sell out to be published. It's fine if that's what you want but how some go about it is sad. Some damn near grovel or will sit there a hundred years, rewriting and changing the same darn story and resubmitting it. Who has that kind of time? It's one thing to be dedicated but at one point don't you have to realize that this trade thing isn't happening? Yet what makes me laugh are the small press authors on AW. ROFL! They look down on indies more. Like they are somebody! Honey, please. And then you look at their book and it's published by Little Man on the Mountain Press or some other one-man operation you ain't never heard of. Meanwhile they are stuck with this "publisher", haven't sold not 1 book in probably 3 years and hot an Amazon ranking so bad there isn't even a ranking. So I roll my eyes as these folks. They are are the pitiful ones. If you wanna sit on AW for the rest of your life, HOPING some agent spits in your direction, fine. I'd rather write books, build an audience, and perfect my brand. What I love about being indie is when I write something I know it's going to be published because I'M publishing it. Can those folks on AW say the same? No. Because they got to beg, plead, grovel, and pray someone looks at their work. Another thing, while they are looking down on others who choose a different path, maybe these AW trade-publishing butt kissers need to take a good long look at themselves. If you've been sitting up in the rejection and dejection threads your entire time of being on the site...maybe you're just not good enough. You think? LOL!
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Post by writeway on Feb 18, 2019 20:39:31 GMT
Those chasing trad pub will have a contract, and we indies won't. That will show us! Of course, a lot more of us seem to be making some money with their writing, so I suppose we can drown our sorrows on our own dime. I have no problem with people going the trad pub route. Good on them, forge their own path. But, they shouldn't have a problem with me doing my thing. I'm not hurting anyone by publishing my own work, so who cares what I do? The self publishing forums on AW are a joke. You can even really ask questions, you're just supposed to "journal" your attempts to sell your books, and accept the pity from those who know better and wouldn't be caught dead doing it. Possibly Deranged, it's all an act. I come from the trade world and let me tell you a lot of trade authors are jealous of indies. I was when I was in trade! I was jealous because indies can price in ways where they can compete. They can switch things up and plus I am a fast writer and trade slowed me down tremendously. Indies can get out work much faster and are paid much faster and often better. So while trade authors act like they think they are better, there are many who would love to go out on their own but don't have the guts. Some don't even wanna try. Anyway, I admit this might sound cruel but I sometimes love reading the rejection and dejection thread. Not that I like to take pleasure in anyone who isn't getting anywhere but it does tickle me sometimes when some of the same folks in that thread whining about not getting agents or not getting a deal (after 20 years of trying) are the same ones who look down on being indie. Honey, I would rather be indie and sell just 20 copies of a book than to have it hiding in some drawer somewhere because I couldn't get Miss NYC Agent to even sneeze in my direction. It's pathetic how some writers sell out to be published. It's fine if that's what you want but how some go about it is sad. Some damn near grovel or will sit there a hundred years, rewriting and changing the same darn story and resubmitting it. Who has that kind of time? It's one thing to be dedicated but at one point don't you have to realize that this trade thing isn't happening? Yet what makes me laugh are the small press authors on AW. ROFL! They look down on indies more. Like they are somebody! Honey, please. And then you look at their book and it's published by Little Man on the Mountain Press or some other one-man operation you ain't never heard of. Meanwhile they are stuck with this "publisher", haven't sold not 1 book in probably 3 years and an Amazon ranking so bad there isn't even a ranking. So I roll my eyes as these folks. They are are the pitiful ones. If you wanna sit on AW for the rest of your life, HOPING some agent spits in your direction, fine. I'd rather write books, build an audience, and perfect my brand. What I love about being indie is when I write something I know it's going to be published because I'M publishing it. Can those folks on AW say the same? No. Because they got to beg, plead, grovel, and pray someone looks at their work. Another thing, while they are looking down on others who choose a different path, maybe these AW trade-publishing butt kissers need to take a good long look at themselves. If you've been sitting up in the rejection and dejection threads your entire time of being on the site...maybe you're just not good enough. You think? LOL!
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Post by writeway on Feb 18, 2019 20:45:18 GMT
Also, I agree about that so-called self-publishing board. It's useless. They've run everyone away who has any real knowledge about self-publishing (including me) so now they are stuck with the blind leading the blind. I feel sorry for the newbies who come on there trying to find out information about becoming indie. They are looking at the wrong place. Going to AW to learn about self-publishing is like going to Pizza Hut for crab legs. It's a waste of time and useless.
Sorry if I seem nasty today but AW brings it out of me. Those folks make me sick.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Feb 19, 2019 2:07:46 GMT
Also, I agree about that so-called self-publishing board. It's useless. They've run everyone away who has any real knowledge about self-publishing (including me) so now they are stuck with the blind leading the blind. I feel sorry for the newbies who come on there trying to find out information about becoming indie. They are looking at the wrong place. Going to AW to learn about self-publishing is like going to Pizza Hut for crab legs. It's a waste of time and useless. Sorry if I seem nasty today but AW brings it out of me. Those folks make me sick. If you can't share your feelings here where can you share them? *hugs* and I hope posting about them helps you feel better. I can't say I feel as strongly as you do about AW, but that's mainly because I always forgot about them. I had two different accounts but never posted. I think I was afraid to after reading a few threads. And then I tried signing up as Audra Black cos I saw their erotica forum and my favorite smutty author used to post there, but my account was immediately rejected. I was upset about that for a while, I think. But really, I just spent all my time at Kboards, so they were barely on my radar. And I've never been part of the trad-pub-merry-go-round. Thank the rainbow goddess!!! I feel sorry for the newbies who only know AW, too. That would be terrible getting all your publishing info from them. ;(
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Post by dormouse on Feb 19, 2019 14:08:16 GMT
the trad-pub-merry-go-round. Easy to forget that it was never like that for quite a lot of authors. Might be a very small % but still quite a large number. Authors only writing, publishers doing all the 'work'; what's not to like? And the need for anyone to be on a merry-go-round disappeared when indie became simple. The big problem is for those who seem constitutionally unable to tell the difference between an open door, a closed door and a brick wall.
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