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Post by dormouse on Jul 13, 2019 19:04:38 GMT
Last week I posted a short excerpt from (imho) a poorly written book, pointing out in detail problems I saw with the writing. A few hours later I woke in bed with a fixed idea that it was gratuitous nastiness to make such comments about a writer's writing. So I accessed it on my phone and deleted it before going back to sleep.
But since then a variety of thoughts have been niggling me. I paid good money for that book on the basis of good reviews (may not have been much - I can't remember - but it was definitely something). The writer has quite a number of books out; may not be a major success, but is certainly earning more than many. [It's not something I would do to someone who was just starting out.] Surely technique is something we ought to be able to discuss on a forum for writers and examples of bad technique can be even more useful than good.
I wouldn't post it in a huge forum like Goodreads. One of the reasons I will post comments on books here is that the membership is small and everyone is a writer.
I don't want to make the writer feel bad - but it would certainly be a good thing if they improved their writing.
I remain conflicted.
Equally I might be wrong (I don't really believe this, of course).
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Post by writeway on Jul 14, 2019 19:18:54 GMT
I rarely review books anymore unless I loved them. Otherwise, I don't review. Since becoming an author it's hard not to put myself in an author's shoes when it comes to critiquing their work so I guess in the back of my mind I think of negative reviews I've gotten so I try not to write them unless I absolutely have to like if the book is offensive or just something so horrible I have to get my feelings across about it.
I have a rule though. Whenever I review, whether I loved a book or hate I am always respectful. I never personally attack the author and I don't write a review in a way to mock or make fun of. I feel like there is never a reason to be nasty. We can always say things in a respectful way even if we hate something. As authors, we should remember how we would feel. I don't care if someone hates my work and leaves a review saying so but to be outright nasty or rude while doing it makes no sense. Then again I live by a, "treat others the way you want to be treated" way.
I also am the same with all authors no matter their level. You don't get a pass from me just because you are new. I will write a negative review if I really, really want to but as I said, it will be respectful. I hear a lot saying, "I took it easy on the author because they were new." Well, to me the newbies are the ones who really need the tough love because they might not know what they are doing wrong. Those are the ones people should not sugarcoat reviews for especially because they need to learn so they won't make the same mistakes. Again, it can be done respectively.
On the flip side, I don't bash an author just because they are famous either. I know some lesser-known authors do this and it seems like it's spiteful and jealous. Like they are just looking for reasons to hate on a book or author that's doing well. I'm not going to be extra harsh just because someone is famous and people think they should be able to take it. Like famous authors don't have feelings or like they want their work bashed because others think they shouldn't have done so well? If someone legitimately doesn't like a famous author's book, that's great. Do a review, but just blasting the book and author because "they've made it", never made sense.
So for me it's all about respect. People can say anything with respect whether they like something or not. I'd never trash an author's book even if I felt they deserved it. I just won't review and leave it at that. If the book is that bad then others can share their feelings about it but I choose not to.
Now bashing movies, that's a whole other story. LOL! When I review movies, I don't hold back.
Oh and about posting excerpts of books and commenting on them, I NEVER do that just because I wouldn't want it done to me but also you never know who on a forum is friends with whom. I've seen it before where authors talked about people on forums and it turned out the person had a lot of friends there. If folks want to talk about others' excerpts it's safer to do in private. You just never know who you are talking to online. Also, maybe I am sensitive but I would be devastated if I came across a forum where a bunch of writers were picking apart my work. I would expect it in a review from readers but if I came across a site with a bunch of my colleagues doing it, it would disgust me. I would also want to know what makes them feel they're so great that they can ridicule my work for all to see especially if my sales are better than theirs.
Again, we need to sometimes step back, employ some empathy and put ourselves in others' shoes. Posting excerpts of someone's work to point out issues looks more like someone is making fun of the work, not critiquing it. I also don't get the point of critiquing passages on a forum unless the author has asked for critiques. The work is published so why not just leave a review?
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Post by dormouse on Oct 14, 2019 23:36:22 GMT
I rarely review books anymore unless I loved them. Otherwise, I don't review. Since becoming an author it's hard not to put myself in an author's shoes when it comes to critiquing their work so I guess in the back of my mind I think of negative reviews I've gotten so I try not to write them unless I absolutely have to like if the book is offensive or just something so horrible I have to get my feelings across about it. I very rarely review on review sites, although I do keep my own journal with comments. When i'm considering buying a book, I prefer 3* reviews with detail. I'll go up and down if I have to, but I need the detail, else I have no idea how it fits in with pet hates or what I'm looking for in that book. I have a rule though. Whenever I review, whether I loved a book or hate I am always respectful. I never personally attack the author and I don't write a review in a way to mock or make fun of. I feel like there is never a reason to be nasty. We can always say things in a respectful way even if we hate something. As authors, we should remember how we would feel. I don't care if someone hates my work and leaves a review saying so but to be outright nasty or rude while doing it makes no sense. Then again I live by a, "treat others the way you want to be treated" way. I have problems with "treat others the way you want to be treated"; I prefer to be treated as human, but I have a thick skin and want as much detailed unvarnished criticism as possible in any review of my work. I learn more (have learned more) from criticism than praise, and it's easier for criticism to be specific. It's easier to work out what to do with specific. But a lot of people aren't comfortable with criticism and it doesn't help them improve. Easy to judge face to face, but not on the internet. I also am the same with all authors no matter their level. You don't get a pass from me just because you are new. I will write a negative review if I really, really want to but as I said, it will be respectful. I hear a lot saying, "I took it easy on the author because they were new." Well, to me the newbies are the ones who really need the tough love because they might not know what they are doing wrong. Those are the ones people should not sugarcoat reviews for especially because they need to learn so they won't make the same mistakes. Again, it can be done respectively. I will give a pass to newbies. I think it is hard enough for anyone to put something out there. They need to have problems pointed out, but that's best done face to face. Not that sugarcoating is ever a good idea. On the flip side, I don't bash an author just because they are famous either. I know some lesser-known authors do this and it seems like it's spiteful and jealous. Like they are just looking for reasons to hate on a book or author that's doing well. I'm not going to be extra harsh just because someone is famous and people think they should be able to take it. Like famous authors don't have feelings or like they want their work bashed because others think they shouldn't have done so well? If someone legitimately doesn't like a famous author's book, that's great. Do a review, but just blasting the book and author because "they've made it", never made sense. Agreed. Oh and about posting excerpts of books and commenting on them, I NEVER do that just because I wouldn't want it done to me but also you never know who on a forum is friends with whom. I've seen it before where authors talked about people on forums and it turned out the person had a lot of friends there. If folks want to talk about others' excerpts it's safer to do in private. You just never know who you are talking to online. Also, maybe I am sensitive but I would be devastated if I came across a forum where a bunch of writers were picking apart my work. I would expect it in a review from readers but if I came across a site with a bunch of my colleagues doing it, it would disgust me. I would also want to know what makes them feel they're so great that they can ridicule my work for all to see especially if my sales are better than theirs. I appreciate the view, though it's not one I share. I have always been happy with detailed and specific criticisms. If I think they are right, then I have a correction to make or I have learned something - either way I don't care who made it or whether they write or only read, sell big or small. If I think they are wrong, I'll pay it no attention whoever they are. Again, we need to sometimes step back, employ some empathy and put ourselves in others' shoes. Posting excerpts of someone's work to point out issues looks more like someone is making fun of the work, not critiquing it. And this is where I get stuck. I agree up to a point. But that point is about unsuspecting potential buyers. And that suggests I should leave an Amazon/Goodreads review pointing out the deficiencies. Though I don't want to hurt the author. Coming back to this after a gap, I'm thinking a proper review might be best because otherwise it doesn't help the readers. And beyond that point is the wider picture. So many writers following a 'never mind the quality feel the width' strategy; dishonest over-promising blurbs; USA Today bestsellers because they left a toenail in a multi-author book. I'm not in favour of witch hunts (ought that to be the phrase? seems rather sexist) or any sort of hierarchy of writers or barrier to publishing; but I do believe that the general quality of writing affects us all. We all have a valid interest in the quality of books put out by other writers, indie and trade. Surely it has come to something when writers' forums take it as read that the quality of a book is best gauged by the quality of the cover. A visual image by an artist/designer for a written work. I know editors are recommended too, but that's a black box process usually by individuals of unknown capability. I also don't get the point of critiquing passages on a forum unless the author has asked for critiques. It's all about craft. A site for writers should be about craft as well as publishing. And craft is about the specific work, not about the abstract concept. Trying to critique for an author is different. It introduces the relationship with the author and all their work rather than a specific fragment of their work. The issues in the fragment could be of interest to any writer. And what one person sees as a problem, might not be to others. And strangely everyone might be right. The work is published so why not just leave a review? A review is a different thing. It ought to encompass the whole work. It ought to be helpful to potential readers/buyers. And should be posted on a review site where it can be easily accessed. |
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Post by gehenna on Oct 15, 2019 7:10:15 GMT
Answering the OP about critiquing a book section in a forum, I wouldn't unless intended as part of multi-faceted tutorial, in which case it should be accompanied by non-judgemental feedback and corrections supported by academic qualification. If possible, I would leave it as anonymously presented as possible so as not to embarrass or inconvenience the author. Perhaps I would question my motive for presenting the forum post, then ask myself if I am qualified to judge. Would I appreciate the same treatment applied to my work? All views are subjective - even those on Grammar. Take CMoS (Chicago Manual of Style) for example. There was at one time a great witch hunt in the forums I belonged to where CMoS was gospel and those who didn't adhere to it were illiterate monkeys. I left the forums thereafter and have been a better, more tolerant writer for it. I find I read more books by authors who write well and less of those who don't. I won't qualify that further except to say I have found errors of some kind in all of them.
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Post by davidvandyke on Oct 15, 2019 17:04:54 GMT
I've only written a few bad book reviews--mostly I just leave it alone--but one in particular I felt was totally necessary.
- Usually great author, one of my favorites, though not perfect
- Usually great characters and scenes, some to make you weep, at least one in my top ten of all scenes
- New book in an extremely popular series, which until then I was loving
- Killed off a beloved main character suddenly and without meaning or pathos, in a couple paragraphs--I had to re-read to be sure what I was reading and not that it would be undone later as an "almost died" or "magically saved" situation. Nope, just bam, dead, nothing to see here, move on. Imagine if you were watching Star Trek: Generations and they'd left Kirk dead 12 minutes in, and he never reappeared with Picard in the Nexus to give meaning to his death. That's how bad it was.
- Introduced a "diversity hire" character so obvious it made me cringe. I try for a diverse cast in my own work and I know when it's being done well or poorly--and usually this author does it reasonably well, though now and then is a bit heavyhanded. I can forgive that, but this one was a carbon-copy of another much deeper "different" character, such a carbon copy that I had to reread and recheck in hopes of disproving I was seeing what I thought I was seeing. Yep. It was a template recycle, and not a very good one, with only one characteristic changed (sex), as if we wouldn't notice. What's more, the character didn't do anything significant, or fill a niche or role. They were simply there to be there, as if they or an editor wanted to make sure this diversity base was covered.
- There was a lot of filler material and world-building, chapters full of "atmosphere" and color, and this was the seventh or eighth book in the series, long past time for that.
The above last three points and my own author experience made me pretty sure that this book was cobbled together out of old notes and character studies, with a few plot points stitched in. Utterly lazy. It still galls me to think about it, especially as I preordered the $25 hardback because I was a big fan and had the whole collection in hardback and was happy to reread them all every time a new book came out. Whether it was the author or the publisher's fault, it certainly drove home my resolve never to order hardbacks new anymore. I'll wait a few months and get them used, and avoid getting burned so badly in the future.
And I wrote a very detailed review. It was one of the first ten on the book, and I hope it warned some readers off and I hope it stung the author and/or publisher, because in this case they deserved to lose sales. It was a hot mess. They utterly failed to deliver.
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