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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jul 22, 2018 20:23:08 GMT
en.oxforddictionaries.com/explore/what-is-the-oxford-comma/ I'm not sure I agree that this comma is optional. It's how I was taught to write and lists of three just look wrong without that second comma. But then again I'm a comma whore! The more commas the better, I say. I wuv them muchly. What sayeth thou?
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Post by davidvandyke on Jul 22, 2018 23:23:16 GMT
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DD
Full Member
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Post by DD on Jul 22, 2018 23:26:42 GMT
My name is DD, and I, too, am a comma whore. There are times when an Oxford comma doesn't add to clarity and just looks pretty. But...it looks pretty. So why not? It's just ones and zeros for the most part; it's not like trees have to die for all those extra commas anymore.  No, more seriously, if it's a list that reads well without the final comma, I'm ok with it (I promise not to one-star anybody for it), but I was also taught to use it, so that's what my eye prefers. |
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jul 22, 2018 23:42:05 GMT
Yay! We seem to be in agreement that serial commas are yea, and not using them is nay.  I wouldn't one-star someone over not using it, either. But my estimation of their writing ability may go down a smidgen. |
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Post by possiblyderanged on Jul 23, 2018 1:00:03 GMT
I'm an old lady, and the Oxford comma rules! I always got little red circles in an English course I was taking a few years back. The instructor said we use less commas these days. I responded that some do, but that didn't make it correct. She ended up not taking points off my grade. That said, I do find myself second-guessing their use. I do this with hyphens as well, sometimes I leave them out but my heart dries up a little.  |
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Post by corabuhlert on Jul 23, 2018 1:58:12 GMT
I'm on team "Nay". The Oxford comma is optional in English and in German, placing a comma before the final "and" in a listing is completely wrong and the sort of thing teachers beat into you in school. So the Oxford comma just looks wrong to me and since it's optional anyway, I opt for not using it.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jul 23, 2018 2:03:01 GMT
I'm on team "Nay". The Oxford comma is optional in English and in German, placing a comma before the final "and" in a listing is completely wrong and the sort of thing teachers beat into you in school. So the Oxford comma just looks wrong to me and since it's optional anyway, I opt for not using it. That's interesting about German not using the final comma. I can understand how someone educated in German schools would be in the nay camp. (nods head) This is one of the things I love about forums - all of the different experiences posters bring to the conversation. I love learning new things! |
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jul 23, 2018 2:07:43 GMT
I'm an old lady, and the Oxford comma rules! I always got little red circles in an English course I was taking a few years back. The instructor said we use less commas these days. I responded that some do, but that didn't make it correct. She ended up not taking points off my grade. That said, I do find myself second-guessing their use. I do this with hyphens as well, sometimes I leave them out but my heart dries up a little. Yikes! Sorry, about that. I was wondering why there were no quote markers in my reply to you. Wasn't until after I hit post that I realized I'd hit the edit button on your post. OOPSadoodle. Here's the original post. This is why I can't self-edit. I tried and there were too many things I had no idea about. Is this correct? Am I using this word too often? Does this need a hyphen? Etc, etc, etc. That's good your instructor didn't ding you for being correct about the comma. |
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Post by grahamcrackers on Jul 24, 2018 12:29:14 GMT
 Sorry, couldn't resist! I personally had them drilled into me as the "correct" way to do it throughout school in England. Now I live in the US and I find that they've begun to slip away so I think there's an element of culture involved. Language evolves and this one is starting to die out I think. |
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Post by theprosepolisher on Jul 25, 2018 2:51:07 GMT
I'm putting on my editor's hat now; I'm a big fan of Oxford commas, simply because they so often make the meaning of a sentence crystal clear: "Mandy boarded the train with her daughter, her husband, a doctor and a ballet dancer." or "Mandy boarded the train with her daughter, her husband, a doctor, and a ballet dancer."  |
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EllieL
Junior Member
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Post by EllieL on Jul 25, 2018 4:06:33 GMT
My name is Ellie and I'm a comma whore. Whew, that feels better already!
Oh, and @graemecrackers, I am totally stealing that meme.
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Post by not2esoteric on Jul 25, 2018 14:55:02 GMT
I use the Oxford comma. Guess I'm a comma whore, too!
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jul 25, 2018 22:43:03 GMT
I saw a bumper sticker today that said "Team Oxford Comma." |
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EllieL
Junior Member
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Post by EllieL on Jul 26, 2018 0:09:28 GMT
I saw a bumper sticker today that said "Team Oxford Comma." Oh I need that! |
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Post by flayotters on Jul 26, 2018 2:47:04 GMT
I'm on team "Nay". The Oxford comma is optional in English and in German, placing a comma before the final "and" in a listing is completely wrong and the sort of thing teachers beat into you in school. So the Oxford comma just looks wrong to me and since it's optional anyway, I opt for not using it. Cora FTW. Although, my use of commas could be considered idiosyncratic. For example, I would never use a so-called Oxford Comma in a straight list, as its use is unnecessary and its power, frankly, wasted. I save my commas to be used as intentional aids to comprehension. People will often throw up sample sentences and thereby reason that such a usage should by followed throughout literature. No. Each comma should be employed – deployed – on its merits, and for the comfort of the reader. Don't waste your punctuating power following arbitrary rules – understand the comma, feel the comma. You will know when the time is right. Or you can do whatever you want.  But never use parentheses in fiction. I hate that. It looks like you didn't try hard enough to craft your sentence. The em dash is your friend. |
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Post by samkates on Jul 28, 2018 11:45:45 GMT
I'm in the UK and was taught in school not to use it. Yet I do on occasion if its inclusion is necessary to avoid ambiguity. That's the thing with blind adherence to some arbitrary 'rule' - if you follow the rule, or avoid it, religiously, there will be times when this will create ambiguity. Far better, like flayotters mentioned, to use the serial comma or not as necessary on a case-by-case basis.
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Post by gaylordfancypants on Jul 28, 2018 16:42:46 GMT
I only use it if my POV character would use it, or when it helps reduce ambiguity (e.g. "my favorite foods are melon and proscuitto, macaroni and cheese, and bangers and mash.")
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Post by paranormalkitty on Jul 28, 2018 19:55:56 GMT
I'm on team "Nay". The Oxford comma is optional in English and in German, placing a comma before the final "and" in a listing is completely wrong and the sort of thing teachers beat into you in school. So the Oxford comma just looks wrong to me and since it's optional anyway, I opt for not using it. It's an error in Spanish too. I think it's an error in most European languages actually. Most likely it's acceptable in English because the language never had an official rule-making body to establish it as error before it came into fashion. |
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Post by flayotters on Jul 29, 2018 3:38:23 GMT
I'm in the UK and was taught in school not to use it. Yet I do on occasion if its inclusion is necessary to avoid ambiguity. That's the thing with blind adherence to some arbitrary 'rule' - if you follow the rule, or avoid it, religiously, there will be times when this will create ambiguity. Far better, like flayotters mentioned, to use the serial comma or not as necessary on a case-by-case basis. Sam knows. It's like all those nineteenth century schoolmastery rules: attempts by humorless scolds to shoehorn the most expressive language in the world into a pair of sensible oxfords. Sometimes you need to dance! And still folks go about quoting the "rules of grammar". Now, I'm all for a little bedtime Fowler (his monologue on shall vs. will is as dense a Ripper Street peasouper - great stuff) but the rules of grammar should better be described as the conventions of grammar. If you're writing a white paper on economic growth in the subcontinent then by all means keep a careful eye on your style guide. But if you're writing deathless prose, let your hair down - slip off those sensible shoes and put on your dancing pumps. Like splitting infinitives. Sure, the infinitive technically includes the "to", so if you go around splitting willy-nilly you'll look like a rube, but once in a while, meaning or style demands a split. "To be or not to be" vs. "To boldly go." So go; boldly. |
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Post by dormouse on Jul 29, 2018 9:51:57 GMT
This is long-winded. To avoid irritation, you might prefer to go straight to the end.
Language is fundamentally oral and aural. Written language is an attempted translation in the absence of sound. Like musical notation, it requires the reader to interpret nuances and subtleties. Punctuation is an aid, and one of the problems with the comma is that it has two prime functions – semantic meaning and rhythm/pacing. The ּ¿ would work as well in English as it does (or does not) in Spanish, but can't usually be used, even if the writer thinks it would be desirable, because it would startle the reader and interrupt their reading. The same can be true with commas.
We tend to talk about English as if it is a single language. But American English is not the same as Australian English and neither are the same as British English. Even English English has many variants. But written English tends to gloss over these differences to make it easier for a non-specified reader, and reading is taught in this generalised form. This allows reading to proceed much faster than hearing would and means that interruptions are more problematic, and unexpected punctuation is an interruption (like a noisy sweet in the seat next to yours). In legalese that extra time doesn't matter because the precision of the meaning is vital; in other forms it does.
In English, 'optional' punctuation is rarely optional. It simply means that the decision making over it is nuanced. So, getting back to the Oxford comma, my answer is that sometimes it is better in and sometimes better out.
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Post by paranormalkitty on Jul 29, 2018 15:27:38 GMT
I'm putting on my editor's hat now; I'm a big fan of Oxford commas, simply because they so often make the meaning of a sentence crystal clear: "Mandy boarded the train with her daughter, her husband, a doctor and a ballet dancer." or "Mandy boarded the train with her daughter, her husband, a doctor, and a ballet dancer." I think this is an example of how the Oxford comma doesn't always prevent ambiguity. In the second sentence, we don't know whether the husband is a doctor or the doctor is another individual on the train. Although the first one could be interpreted as the husband being both a doctor and a ballet dancer, I actually think it's less ambiguous just because it's not likely for one person to have both of those careers. |
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