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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jun 27, 2021 3:02:14 GMT
writeway Yes, I'm sure the scammers will find a way to take advantage of the program. They're the grasshoppers of the publishing world. I don't worry about them because there's nothing I can do to change their behavior. But I get it can be super frustrating and annoying to think about them.
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Post by writeway on Jul 15, 2021 4:53:26 GMT
So Vella has started and many authors are already complaining. I think their expectations were way too high. The place hasn't even been around a month yet and people are already pulling out. The biggest complaints seem to be authors upset about the refund issue and the fact that they are seeing no readership and views.
The refund thing is the biggie. Apparently, Amazon did a bait and switch and readers can be REFUNDED coins on an episode. The kicker is that the reader DOES NOT get their money back but they can get more coins to use for another story. Authors do not get paid for refunds as well as Amazon keeps the money regardless. Wow. Yes. Neither the reader or the author gets the money if the reader asks for a refund. Needless to say, authors are saying this is not what they signed up for and figure this will lead to abuse. Of course, it will. Readers already abuse KDP's return policy so they'll sure abuse this as well. I don't think readers should get a refund on an episode. And they get SEVEN days to ask for one. So the reader can read tons of episodes and then ask for their coins back. Meanwhile, the author's work has been read and they get nothing. Hmm. Surprised. NOT. LOL! I mean who would've guessed that Amazon would find some way to make this work for THEM as opposed to being fair to anyone else. It's not like they haven't done this 100 times before with any program they start. This is why I didn't want to do Vella. I knew it would be some hidden BS.
The other complaint is another thing I mentioned would happen, the big fish getting all the views and marketing while the others struggle to get seen. And guess what? Mr. Hugh Howey's story is the FIRST one you see when you go on Vella.
Surprised. Nah, not surprised.
Damn I must be psychic. LOL!
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jul 15, 2021 15:23:33 GMT
I am quite shocked at this shocking turn of events. [shocked Pikachu face] Everyone was so optimistic, and hopeful, and wildly unreasonable in their expectations based on the amazon we know. Visibility is always an issue, especially on a brand new program that probably doesn't that have many readers, in the first place. It's never going to be amazon 2008-2010 again. The coin returns fits their Audible model quite nicely. Although, that did get them in trouble eventually. But amazon will never not try to screw authors over. It's just in their nature.
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Post by writeway on Jul 15, 2021 20:53:46 GMT
I am quite shocked at this shocking turn of events. [shocked Pikachu face] Everyone was so optimistic, and hopeful, and wildly unreasonable in their expectations based on the amazon we know. Visibility is always an issue, especially on a brand new program that probably doesn't that have many readers, in the first place. It's never going to be amazon 2008-2010 again. The coin returns fits their Audible model quite nicely. Although, that did get them in trouble eventually. But amazon will never not try to screw authors over. It's just in their nature. ROFL! Part of me wish I had an invisible farm to sell some of these authors. Some went into it being realistic but others sound like they expected the moon and the stars. Most of them can't even get not one view of their episodes and scrambling. Claiming people can't find their stories so they don't know how to promote. Some authors can't even find their own stories. Apparently it's hard to find a story or something. I did read a few of the episodes and some were very good but not good enough to get me to pay for more. That's the big issue. How will these authors convince someone to spend money on individual episodes? Especially when many readers don't like serials in the first place and can just download a free book either through KU or not and get a whole book. Then, will this appeal to serial readers? It's so hard to navigate through the place. And will readers be satisfied with Amazon keeping their money if they want a refund? I wish the authors well and hope Vella works for them but I just don't know. And that refund issue...yikes. If I were in Vella I'd pull out based on that alone! You could really get ripped off. Not to mention Amazon is offering readers 200 free coins right now. You could read a bunch of serials for that, for free. Authors are saying this wasn't explained to them. REALLY? What? Amazon actually hid something from authors? No way! With the way this is going, I wonder if it will even last a month. |
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jul 17, 2021 5:35:18 GMT
I saw the free coins coming the moment I heard of the program. Just think back to all the free KU subscriptions amazon handed out back when it was new. It was right there in black and white that vella authors are only paid off amazon's earning, so if amazon gives stories out for free (and we know from experience that this is their favorite way to promo new programs), that there would be tons of authors not making any money. Although, amazon gets all the monies from any peeps who sign up. Plus, they learned from audible that it makes much more sense for amazon to take returns money from authors, and not out of amazon's pocket.
If you want to write serials - write serials - but do it through a medium that lets you control how long each episode is, what you charge for it, and that is in a spot where readers can actually find your episodes. Quit letting amazon drop the ceiling on how shittily you'll let them treat you.
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Post by writeway on Jul 18, 2021 0:30:49 GMT
I saw the free coins coming the moment I heard of the program. Just think back to all the free KU subscriptions amazon handed out back when it was new. It was right there in black and white that vella authors are only paid off amazon's earning, so if amazon gives stories out for free (and we know from experience that this is their favorite way to promo new programs), that there would be tons of authors not making any money. Although, amazon gets all the monies from any peeps who sign up. Plus, they learned from audible that it makes much more sense for amazon to take returns money from authors, and not out of amazon's pocket. If you want to write serials - write serials - but do it through a medium that lets you control how long each episode is, what you charge for it, and that is in a spot where readers can actually find your episodes. Quit letting amazon drop the ceiling on how shittily you'll let them treat you. Exactly on your point about writing serials elsewhere. People keep asking me if I'm gonna do Vella. I'm like, "Heck no. I can make way more releasing a serial myself than on Vella." And that's the truth. I do plan to release serials but on Amazon myself where I don't have to deal with all the crap going on at Vella. Most of these people will make NO money on there. One lady said she had over 100 episodes read and had made something like .50 cents. Are you kidding me?  Many are depressed already because they put in all that work, had gotten so excited and it's a big bust so far. I know it's only been a few days but I see major issues I don't know will be fixed. For example: I haven't seen anyone say they've bought not one episode. That's a problem. Some authors have made a teeny bit of money so yeah a few reader bought some but no one I see and most of the readers are authors anyway. Regular readers don't even know this exists. As a reader, I don't see a reason to purchase anything on Vella because you can get whole book for free right on Amazon, which I'm sure is more tempting. Authors have surveyed their readers and many said they won't be paying to read one episode at a time and are asking authors when the whole book will be done. It's a mess. Me, I have seen a few interesting stories but nothing that would make me spend any money. It would have to knock my socks off to get me to pay per episode. But yeah, it's better to do your serials yourself and you will get more eyes on it especially it's in KU where folks can borrow it. Again, I hope it works out for the authors because I don't wish anything bad on them but even after a few days I'm not convinced of Vella being a good investment for authors after all. |
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Post by writeway on Jul 18, 2021 23:27:46 GMT
And the scamming and black hat tactics have begun! I am in some Vella groups on FB and authors are talking about other authors padding their episodes so they can charge more tokens. Basically, just throwing in a bunch of filler. It'll be interesting to see the low-down tricks people try in Vella. No one should be surprised. I'm also not comfortable with other authors doing all this thumbs up and stuff for other authors. Most of it is to help authors attract readers so it's disengious. Already on FB they got "thumbs up" and "favorites" rings where they are all thumbing up each other's stories and marking each other's stories as favorites to get others visibility. It's dishonest because with the thumbs up you are making readers think others really liked these stories when these authors haven't even read them. It's pathetic. This is why Amazon got rid of tagging. Remember that? Because authors were abusing it. Also, Vella authors are scheming to try to put their stories in categories so they can get better visibility even if the story doesn't belong. Why can't you just promote and do the best you can? Be honest? It's not gonna help you to "fake it to make it" because once real readers come along and your story on Vella sucks, all you're gonna get is pushback. Plus, lying and tricking readers isn't gonna make you money. I guess the next step is authors buying each other's episodes. There was already one dude who said he unlocked his own stories "just to see if he could do it." Yeah, right. I hope authors don't get paid if they unlock their own stories because you can best believe they'll all start buying their own work. What's the point of that? How does it help someone in the end?
Let's be real, some stories in Vella are trash. Even other authors are talking about how some of them have several typos in the first episode, with bad stories, and looks like they haven't even been edited. So of course you got some folks just throwing stuff up.
But these Vella rings have started already!
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tweek
Junior Member
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Post by tweek on Jul 19, 2021 3:03:10 GMT
Same old tricks, eh. Authors have massive author street teams downloading, 'reading', and 5-starring in KU. They effectively bot books up the charts to get a % of legit reads. It's hardly surprising the same tricks are being deployed in Vella.
Yet another Amazon mess in the making.
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tweek
Junior Member
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Post by tweek on Jul 19, 2021 9:58:35 GMT
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Post by writeway on Jul 20, 2021 2:08:19 GMT
On Kboards ( I know I said I'd stopped lurking but only peeked to see what they said about Vella), someone mentioned the top stories and how well Hugh's was doing. Then Hugh "magically" chimes in and goes, "Wow, I didn't even know this until now!"  *rolling eyes and vomiting emoji* Are you kidding me? Just stop with the humble act, please. Like his Amazon rep hasn't told him how wonderful his book is doing??? Like he doesn't get on Vella and see it's the first darn story up there with all those likes and thumbs up? Like he didn't think him being an Amazon puppet and them promoting his story to the hilt never happened??? It's that humble act he does that gets me. Like he doesn't wanna come off as bragging yet he's bragging on the sly. Like we really believe he's at all shocked at how well his story is doing after he's gotten all the special treatment in the world.  And no one believes he just happened to see that post by accident. He's been lurking and stalking that site probably since Vella launched so he can go report back to Amazon what authors are saying. Don't tell me Hugh doesn't have anything better to do with his time than go to that boring ass Kboards. He's there for an agenda but those Kboards people are so blind. Do they really think Hugh started coming back there just to hang out with them?  Yeah, okay. Authors need to be careful what they say around him about Amazon, that's all I'm gonna say. But seriously, with all his power with Amazon why isn't he using his voice to make things better at KDP for other authors? Especially since he keeps pretending he's still "down" for indies. Please. Those Kboards folks are so dumb. Hugh wasn't thinking about them and hadn't been there in YEARS until Amazon sent him there for Vella. And I bet he's lurking around on the Reddit indie boards too. |
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Post by prolificwriter on Jul 20, 2021 2:29:17 GMT
On Kboards ( I know I said I'd stopped lurking but only peeked to see what they said about Vella), someone mentioned the top stories and how well Hugh's was doing. Then Hugh "magically" chimes in and goes, "Wow, I didn't even know this until now!" *rolling eyes and vomiting emoji* Are you kidding me? Just stop with the humble act, please. Like his Amazon rep hasn't told him how wonderful his book is doing??? Like he doesn't get on Vella and see it's the first darn story up there with all those likes and thumbs up? Like he didn't think him being an Amazon puppet and them promoting his story to the hilt never happened??? Yeah, his story has been front and center since Vella launched. It’s the first story you see under the Featured in Vella section, even though other stories have more likes (some a lot more, like thousands more in one case). |
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tweek
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Post by tweek on Jul 20, 2021 9:08:54 GMT
But you knew Amazon would reward Hugh for shilling. Hugh wants a payout. And only a small group are responding to Hugh on kboards. Is Vella a success? Not for 99.9999% of authors. This is the usual smoke and mirror game Amazon play to convince the feeble minded to handover content for nothing much in return. Later they'll add in-app ads to bleed money from the ever-hopeful and naive authors.
This routine is so predictable it's become boring.
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Post by writeway on Jul 20, 2021 15:51:44 GMT
I'm waiting for them to buy Radish! I can smell it coming.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jul 21, 2021 3:45:40 GMT
They'll buy Radish just to shut it down, then shutter Vella in a year or two.
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tweek
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Post by tweek on Jul 21, 2021 9:09:04 GMT
Radish might well refuse to sell. They got $63m investment in 2020. They're doing okay considering how poorly serials have done in the West to date. techcrunch.com/2020/08/04/radish-softbank-kakao Extracts... Breaking up book-length stories into smaller chapters that are released over days or weeks is an idea that was popularized in the 19th century, and startups have been trying to revive it for at least the past decade. Still, this round represents a major step up in funding, not just for Radish (which only raised around $5 million previously), but also compared to other startups in a relatively nascent market. (Digital fiction startup Wattpad is the notable exception.) While Radish borrowed the writing room model from TV — and hired Emmy-winning TV writers, particularly those with a background in soap operas Radish stories are mostly in the genres of romance, paranormal/sci-fi, LGBTQ, young adult, horror, mystery and thriller, and Lee said the audience is largely female and based in the United States. “With its own fast-paced original content production, Radish is best positioned to become a leading player in the global online fiction market,” said SoftBank Ventures Asia CEO JP Lee in a statement. Leveraging our global SoftBank ecosystem, we hope to support and accelerate Radish’s expansion across different regions worldwide.” |
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Jul 24, 2021 2:48:23 GMT
In the olden days, serialized stories were part of magazines and newspapers, as far as I'm aware. So readers weren't paying directly for novels broken into episodes. They were paying a subscription for a whole lot more content. Or they were buying their newspapers a paper at a time, but they were still getting a whole newspaper, not one short story.
I think if people really want serials to take off they need to go the Patreon subscription route. Maybe get together with other writers in your genre and put together a package. Have several different series running at the same time, with weekly releases for free. And then add on discord or a Facebook Group for subscribers where your community can get personal access to you, to ask questions, make requests, stuff like that.
Community economies are big right now, especially with gen z. Young people are willing to pay for someone to talk to, and to get to be part of a special club/community, but there's so much free content out there already.
I just don't think selling pieces of a story piece-by-piece on it's own will ever be very popular. But I could be wrong. I've heard it's really common and popular in Asia.
People will pay $2.99 for a smutty short, that is part of a long serial, so if you like writing sex that's really the better way to go.
For me personally, I want length. I want quantity for my bucks. I want the entire story. I get upset with 6 and 8 episode TV shows where you only get around 30 minutes of actual plot minus all of the annoying front and end credits. So I'm about as anti piece-by-piece story selling as anyone.
But I know people are being conditioned to expect and be grateful for much less for more money, so who knows. Maybe it really is the future.
I hope radish doesn't sell to amazon just because I'd like someone to stand up and say no to them for once. I also don't want any more companies selling out to Disney. But that's another topic.
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tweek
Junior Member
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Post by tweek on Jul 24, 2021 10:46:49 GMT
Setting Vella aside because it's a hot mess, the serial businesses isn't an easy one to win at.
Asia is a different market. There are 2.4 billion people in China/India, so you don't need much of a % to get a decent sized market. And even there, the serial readers tend to be romance/erotica. You can't assume what works in Asia will work in the West. Radish were stumbling until they brought in their own writers, but even with them, romance is still their successful genre by a mile.
I don't know much about the community funding style selling like Patreon. I suspect a lot of the success is dependent on personality, sort of like the YouTubers and TikTokers. If you don't have the right catchy sort of interaction style, then you'll struggle to win support and money. And it's surprising what works. Some of them specialize in being obnoxious jerks, yet the paying audience still flock around them. So, you need the right product and engaging sort of personality to make those sites work for you.
I'd be surprised if the full story novel reader will be happy with a never ending probably never to be finished serial (the abandon rate of serials on Vella is going to be ridiculously high at this rate). A reader only has to be let down once with a story they invested in (emotionally and financially) that never ends or is abandoned and they'll never try another one. Converting novel readers to become serial readers is probably close to impossible.
I suspect the serial business is targeting the younger market. Get 'em while they're young and train them to read and pay for content using a serial style model. Will it work? I honestly don't know. I think we're destined to have less readers in the future. The old are dying off and the young have a lot of different ways of being entertained. Who knew twitch would have so much appeal and who knows how long it will last?
I think serials in the West are a gamble. I also think they'll take a lot of investment and Amazon have pushed most of the cost to the authors. The authors will load content at risk with no real idea of what they'll earn. If it fails, then authors will be the ones who take the brunt of the cost, even if it is in time alone (time is money is no more true than for the one-person band operator, even the content mills aren't big enough to waste time this way). And that assumes Amazon won't hide the failure for a while by making their shills and pushed content appear successful. Gotta give those sucker little authors something to chase.
***
This is something I posted elsewhere about Amazon's token payment model...
"Amazon will give away and discount tokens to make Vella appear successful and attract readers. Every single token/coin model business gives away/discounts coins/tokens. Time constrained discounts/free is a key part of getting people to buy tokens/coins (& getting them to return to the site). The token/coin model is very well understood and they ALL use the same discounting/free tactics. Amazon will be no different. Authors need to factor that into their projected earnings - the actual price and therefore payment of tokens will never be fully visible - it means the stated price per token won't be what the buyers have necessarily paid - and authors will only be paid 50% of the actual paid value of a token."
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Post by writeway on Aug 26, 2021 6:14:16 GMT
Has it been two months for Vella yet? Seems like a big bust so far. Speaking of which, I don't think Hugh Howey has been back on Kboards since Vella launched. Go figure!
Does anyone know anyone who is doing well with this? The most I've heard someone making was $300 dollars and that's definitely not the norm. Most are making nothing or a few pennies. Many have already dropped out. People keep saying this is in beta and Amazon will kick in advertising once the program gets out of beta. That sounds like something these authors are saying to make themselves feel better. Has Amazon actually said this thing is in beta? And I've never known Amazon to hold off on advertising something unless they just didn't give a sh*t. They busted out advertising KU out the gate.
Many authors in this program seem to either be in denial or wearing rose-colored glasses, thinking Amazon's gonna ride in and start pushing all their stories to the top. I admit, I didn't have much faith in Amazon for Vella but I thought they'd put more effort into it than this. Looks like they expect the authors to bring the readers and that ain't working.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 26, 2021 19:14:00 GMT
I haven't visited Kboards in forever, nor read anything about vella. I'll do some research and get back to you.
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Post by writeway on Aug 26, 2021 21:55:16 GMT
I haven't visited Kboards in forever, nor read anything about vella. I'll do some research and get back to you. I'm in some Vella groups on FB and according to what I've seen, things aren't going well overall and it's like Amazon doesn't give a damn about the program. In those groups, the authors aren't making any money and clueless as to how to promote. I also read a Reddit group about Vella where many say the same thing. Other than maybe one person in those groups who has made 300 dollars, I've not known anyone making close to three figures so I wondered if any of you knew of authors doing better in the program but my guess is most are struggling. Seems like Amazon unleashed Vella and cut it loose. Now they have these so-called bonuses that they dangle in front of authors for them to stay but the bonuses are pathetic too. People on Vella celebrating bonuses of 30 or 40 dollars??? I mean, really? Money is money but this is ALL some have made. Those bonuses yet they do all that work to be on Vella when they could just release their own serials and make more money. |
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 27, 2021 5:33:20 GMT
I read a Vella thread on kboards and a few threads on reddit for my research, today. And yeah, nothing I'm hearing is surprising.
There bots are falsely reporting and blocking uploaders, no one's stories are being read, the few people who actually want to read episodes can't find what they want, and because there's no money authors aren't updating very quickly, or at all because they aren't motivated to do so.
Some authors seem to feel more comfortable writing serials and posting them onto serial sites, rather than publishing eBooks. So they represent some of the uploaders. Others are just early adopters who need to be involved in all the shiny new things, in case they strike gold. And others were stuck or struggling and found new inspiration in the new format, and aren't super concerned if they make any money or not.
I'm sure there are other groups in there, but those were the ones I noticed.
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Post by writeway on Sept 19, 2021 4:51:02 GMT
I peeked over on the Vella board on KBoards and just as I suspected, I don't think Hugh has been back since Vella first launched. But it was funny because someone posted about why Vella is a dude and were talking about Amazon relying on big names to bring it attention then the person said, "But these readers don't know who Hugh Howey is." This is the point I made a long time ago! A lot of folks reading serials and new readers don't even know who Hugh Howey is. He hasn't been relevant in 10 years so that was a big fail if Amazon expected Hugh to bring in people. They should've gone after some of the romance authors killing it in KU right now who today's readers actually know. And doesn't Amazon have Dean Koontz now? Isn't he publishing with them? Why the heck wouldn't you convince Dean to participate? ? That's a real celebrity but we know the answer to that, Dean is too busy and too smart to waste his time. The only people who still keep up with Hugh are indie authors from when he started. Readers today don't know who he is. He hasn't written anything new in a decade. |
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Many are depressed already because they put in all that work, had gotten so excited and it's a big bust so far. I know it's only been a few days but I see major issues I don't know will be fixed.
*rolling eyes and vomiting emoji* Are you kidding me? Just stop with the humble act, please. Like his Amazon rep hasn't told him how wonderful his book is doing??? Like he doesn't get on Vella and see it's the first darn story up there with all those likes and thumbs up?
Yeah, okay. Authors need to be careful what they say around him about Amazon, that's all I'm gonna say.
