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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 16, 2018 4:01:16 GMT
I am merging all the threads I've started on mysteries into one so that's it's all more convenient and easier to find. Pay no attention to the man in the funny yellow hat. New OP: Since I'm writing a mystery we need a dedicated thread like this one. So here ya go. I am only on day three of plotting. I am 13,000 words into my outline and I think I'm starting to get close to the end. I have never successfully completed a murder mystery before so I have lots of voices in my head telling me I can't do it, but just because I haven't done it before doesn't mean I can't do it now. I started off with the remnants of a plot outline I created years ago. I couldn't remember everything about it, and going through my archive of chaos and despair was too much work, so I just jotted down what I remembered and went from there. The last time I wrote a novel/novella I learned that I can pants but I cannot edit a novel that has been pantsed. It's just too long, and overwhelming, and my brain shuts down. Maybe one day when I can afford a few really good editors, but not now. So this time around I am planning everything. I'm already having issues with length at just 13,000, but it's still manageable. I have a ton of logic issues and a memory like a sieve, so I have to go back and fix things a lot, like how at one point, I had one character who was singlehandedly cleaning mansions by herself. Uh no, unless she has super speed, so now she works for a service. Pretty simple to edit in the outline. I also tend to forget things like funerals. Once I started jotting down what day it was, that has helped a lot, keeping track of time passing is important. Always know what day it is. And I have a text doc with all of my character's names so that when I inevitably forget a character's name for the umpteenth time I can just check the txt file and get back to work. I'm definitely concerned with length, but I'll make it as long as I can. All I can do. Post your questions and thoughts and feelings and experiences on writing murder mysteries, all sub-genres included. ................................................................................................. Older OP from merged thread authorbooktraining.com/cozy-mystery-class/ I'm taking this right now. I won't be using their plots, I can create my own. I'm not 30,000 words is long enough, the ones I read are usually around 60,000, but I'm not very good at writing long, so we'll see how it goes. I've just watched the first video, so far. It gave an overview of what a cozy mystery is and provides an easy plotting method - Crime, Suspects, Clues, Conclusion. And then spends the last 15 minutes filling out a mind map, showing how you would fill that template out. I wouldn't recommend anyone spending $197 for this product, unless you've got disposable money and are addicted to writing courses. Courses like this are why there are so many poorly written cozies out there on the market. Rob Howard emphasizes being shallow, not delving too deeply into anything, or thinking too hard. This is why we have so many stories with stupid amateur sleuths, stories that don't make sense, and mysteries that break the rules. Peeps who believe that publishing coloring books makes you an author, teachers that outsource everything to ghostwriters, and that think every amateur sleuth in a cozy mystery is a stay-at-home housewife with too much time on her hands. Who doesn't even know that one of the most important aspects of a cozy mystery is the small town setting, and that the sleuth is supposed to be college educated. Watching "Murder She Wrote" and skimming through a couple "Miss Marple's" does not qualify you to teach a class on cozy mystery writing. That being said, I enjoy watching peeps mind map stuff, and I'm hoping the secret to writing 10,000 words a day includes a video on training your dragon. More review to come. I'm off to watch video two.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 16, 2018 6:33:55 GMT
I forgot I had shit study tonight so I worked on my plotting. I had to add in the sleuth after creating the victim and the suspects, so I added a step to the formula. ThenI got stuck on the clues part. I just couldn't make my brain come up with clues, so I took a more character driven focus. I started with the murder, when, how it happened, then I went through the suspects, determined where they said they were, where it's determined later they really were, and through force of elimination found the killer. The clues manifested themselves via this process. I think I am definitely more of a character driven writer. I can't just come up with plotsicles. I have to create characters and learn more about them, and then the plot comes along.
So my cozy mystery formula now works like this:
Murder Victim Suspects Sleuth and her connection to the suspects/victim Scene of the crime Means, Motives, and Opportunities of the Suspects Second Murder Murderer is revealed
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 16, 2018 8:11:57 GMT
I just finished the second video and I strongly disagree that cozy mysteries are plot driven and not character driven. I read cozies for the characters! Yes, the mysteries are important, too, but the sleuth and her family and friends are the reason I return again and again. If you're thinking of writing a cozy, please don't use stereotypes & cliches. Also, you don't have to make everyone in the town stupid. The cops don't even have to be stupid. They can be competent, good at their jobs, but make wrong calculations due to lack of accurate information. No one in your story should be labeled a buffoon. I did like how he goes through how to use the heroes journey with a mystery plot, however, "how to write a damn good mystery" by James N. Frey, does a much better and more thorough job of this and is only $9.99. This book is really the very best mystery writing book I've read, it doesn't deal with cozies, so you'll have to restructure a bit for that, but it's still really good. www.amazon.com/dp/B003E4CY8U/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 16, 2018 9:04:44 GMT
Got tired and bored with the third video. The big secret was outline and pre-write. You could get the same info from Rachel Aaron for much cheaper. www.amazon.com/2k-10k-Writing-Faster-Better-ebook/dp/B009NKXAWS The other secret to writing fast is to dictate, or to outline then pay a ghostwriter to write the book for you. I have seriously read books/courses where that last one was the solution. Of course even if you do write your books yourself if you use stereotypes and cliches, don't put too much thought into the story, focus on the plot rather than the characters, and use as many tropey shortcuts as possible, the outlining, pre-writing will be a lot faster, which means the writing will be a lot faster, too. If, however, you want to exert a little more effort it's prolly going to take you longer than a weekend to finish your cozy mystery.
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cate
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Post by cate on Aug 16, 2018 16:15:33 GMT
I got my secret weapon for my cozies free: www.thewriterslens.com/2012/01/murderers-ladder.htmlThe Murderer's Ladder was created by Erle Stanley Gardner (Perry Mason books) to help plot the killer's motivations. You actually flip the list, so 1 is at the bottom, and work your way up. I go through this ladder once I have my idea for the story, then build my bullet point outline. Cozies are absolutely character driven! My readers keep coming back for the eclectic characters that populate my English village. If you want to look them up, they are The Maggie Mulgrew Mysteries. And writing one in a weekend? Hahahahahahahahahaha! Thanks for the review, and for slogging through the videos. ETA: here is a fab blog I found when I was first starting my series: elizabethspanncraig.com/mystery-writing-tips/outlining-cozy-mystery/Loads of great articles, and it really helped me when I was starting out.
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Post by kateelizabeth on Aug 16, 2018 17:03:37 GMT
This is very interesting. I tried writing a mystery a few months ago, and it wasn't pretty. I may try again later on, so thank you for the advice, both of you.
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DD
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Post by DD on Aug 16, 2018 17:18:51 GMT
Did he at least tell you the foolproof method to market to all the bored, older housewives?
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 16, 2018 17:50:13 GMT
Did he at least tell you the foolproof method to market to all the bored, older housewives? The method was to look for the best selling cozies on amazon, then copy the asin and paste in into Facebook, looking for small readers only groups where those popular books have been mentioned, and then Pming the group admin and ask for them to sticky feature your new book post for $5 or $10. Supposedly there are all these FB reader groups owners who are just dying to make money from their groups but they don't know how. So you as the ultra smart author offer to help them out, and in return their reader members eagerly rush to buy your book because other popular books like yours have already been talked about here so it's assumed they'll be more likely to buy yours. I imagine you could also try searching for blogs where popular cozies have been mentioned/reviewed and offer money to the blog owners for blog reviews.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 16, 2018 17:51:02 GMT
I got my secret weapon for my cozies free: www.thewriterslens.com/2012/01/murderers-ladder.htmlThe Murderer's Ladder was created by Erle Stanley Gardner (Perry Mason books) to help plot the killer's motivations. You actually flip the list, so 1 is at the bottom, and work your way up. I go through this ladder once I have my idea for the story, then build my bullet point outline. Cozies are absolutely character driven! My readers keep coming back for the eclectic characters that populate my English village. If you want to look them up, they are The Maggie Mulgrew Mysteries. And writing one in a weekend? Hahahahahahahahahaha! Thanks for the review, and for slogging through the videos. ETA: here is a fab blog I found when I was first starting my series: elizabethspanncraig.com/mystery-writing-tips/outlining-cozy-mystery/Loads of great articles, and it really helped me when I was starting out. Ooh, thanks for the links!!! The Myrtle Clover Series is one of my faves!
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cate
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Post by cate on Aug 16, 2018 18:32:56 GMT
My pleasure. I learned much from the blog posts - and the Murderer's Ladder literally changed the way I plot my mysteries.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 16, 2018 19:24:32 GMT
My pleasure. I learned much from the blog posts - and the Murderer's Ladder literally changed the way I plot my mysteries. I just used it on my murderer. I got 9 steps, but I haven't figured out step 10 yet. My planning hasn't gotten that far. It's pretty fun though.
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DD
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Post by DD on Aug 16, 2018 21:23:04 GMT
Got tired and bored with the third video. The big secret was outline and pre-write. You could get the same info from Rachel Aaron for much cheaper. www.amazon.com/2k-10k-Writing-Faster-Better-ebook/dp/B009NKXAWS The other secret to writing fast is to dictate, or to outline then pay a ghostwriter to write the book for you. I have seriously read books/courses where that last one was the solution. Of course even if you do write your books yourself if you use stereotypes and cliches, don't put too much thought into the story, focus on the plot rather than the characters, and use as many tropey shortcuts as possible, the outlining, pre-writing will be a lot faster, which means the writing will be a lot faster, too. If, however, you want to exert a little more effort it's prolly going to take you longer than a weekend to finish your cozy mystery. I'm reading Nine Day Novel-Writing right now. I'm not sure I can do 10k a day, though; I have too much other stuff I have to get done in a day, unless I want to get fired. If it turns out dictating or hiring ghostwriters is the trick, I'll scream.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 16, 2018 22:17:51 GMT
To type really fast you either have to be the type of writer that has entire novels play themselves out in your head so that all you have to do is sit there and type what you see, or outline extremely well before you write, block out all distractions, do poms if it's easier, and never edit while you're writing. If you edit as you go it will take longer, however, you won't have to edit, later, so I'm not sure if you're actually saving time or not. That's just what all the speed experts say. For me, my mind is slow. My fingers are slow. My editing is realllllllllllly slow, so yeah. Plus, procrastination. As a kid I used to act out stories out loud all the time. But I would feel way too self-conscious to do that now. Not with people in the house, anyway. I have 26 pages of my whisker island cozy that I wrote a couple years ago, and I'm liking what I'm reading so it would be cool if I were to just keep adding to it. Nothing is ever going to happen with my 30,000 word lesbians in space novella until I can find/pay someone to edit it for me. Editing is like the worst thing ever. I really hate it. *cries*
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DD
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Post by DD on Aug 16, 2018 22:49:19 GMT
I am taking an editing course right now through ed2go. They have a mystery writing class that I will take when I'm finished. The romance course looked interesting, but the instructor's books don't rank all that great on Amazon, so I'm waffling on that one. I'm going to read one of her books and judge for myself. The last RWA workshop I enrolled in had an instructor who was less than ideal. They were a "USA Today Best-selling Author" and I naively thought that meant they knew what they were doing, so I paid my moolah before checking out a couple of their books. OMG. I've read worse, but they didn't check to make sure the characters weren't doing impossible things according to what they'd previously been described as doing, there was what I thought was a bit of a plot fail at the end, the spelling was horrible, quite a few words were used incorrectly, and the punctuation was way off. For a first or second novel, I might forgive those things, but someone who's published a few dozen and is expecting me to pay for their expertise b/c they are a best-selling author needs to do better.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 16, 2018 23:07:43 GMT
I'm trying free editing videos on YT. I have 40,097 words on Mind Splitter, and it's such a waste if all those words just keep sitting on my hard drive forever. You would think RWA would screen their spokespeople better than that. But maybe they lack the resources.
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DD
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Post by DD on Aug 17, 2018 0:55:31 GMT
I'm trying free editing videos on YT. I have 40,097 words on Mind Splitter, and it's such a waste if all those words just keep sitting on my hard drive forever. You would think RWA would screen their spokespeople better than that. But maybe they lack the resources. Wow, it never even occurred to me that there might be editing stuff on Youtube. I'll have to check it out. It's been such a help with graphics tutorials.
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Post by possiblyderanged on Aug 21, 2018 8:46:45 GMT
This is basically me. I can't outline to save my life, because once I've got an outline, I don't want to write the story any more. Anyway, thanks for telling us about the course. Sounds like a waste of time and money, but I'm not one for things like that. I do have the two links given by Cate open now, which I'll read later. I've thought about doing cozy mysteries, and have been reading some, but frankly am not impressed. But, maybe I'll still do some. I need more stuff to put on the second pen name, since I'm not really a romance kind of girl and I don't know that UF is my gig either.
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cate
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Post by cate on Aug 21, 2018 15:09:09 GMT
I also play stories out in my head - I have since I was about 10. I found a quick bullet point outline works for me, and keeps me from going off on tangents that end up being cut.
I started my cozy series on a whim, but I have loved writing it. Mine aren't typical cozies - I love straight up mysteries, and my books have more action, and more on the page violence, than the happy sappy cozies I see out now. There aren't even animals until a later book, when they take in two cats that were abandoned. I wanted to step outside the crafty/foody/must have adorable job and/or pet box, and chose a small English village, eclectic characters, and an antique shop run by an ex-pat Yank who falls for a British archaeologist - with a supernatural bent. It's been working so far - my read through for the series is 85-90%.
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Post by corabuhlert on Aug 25, 2018 23:08:23 GMT
For my mystery series (not really cozies, but closer to police procedurals), I usually know what happened and who is responsible, though I don't have a detailed outline and I often don't know the killer's motivation until I'm the resolution. Some clues show up right away, but if necessary I go back and add in more clues and red herrings.
As for characterisation, that's very important for my series. My detective and her team started out without a whole lot of characterisation, since I wasn't planning on writing a series. I just had an idea for a mystery and needed a detective, an assistant and a medical examiner. But over the course of this series, these characters have developed a lot and aquired families, partners, interests, hobbies, music tastes, etc... I even had two characters become a couple and found a boyfriend for my lead detective as well.
The various witnesses, suspects, victims, etc... are usually only there for a single case, but they are definitely developed characters. But then, my detective mostly solves her cases by questioning witnesses and suspects, with some help from the forensics team. And I find that when I let my detective interview witnesses and suspects, their characters develop of their own accords. And if you get more than one suspect together in the same room, they start accusing each other and that's when the real fun starts.
I'm toying with starting a cozier spin-off series focussed on a character who was a witness and briefly a suspect in a previous mystery. She's the kind of character who would make a great cozy protagonist, a woman who runs a New Age shop and has a cat. There's even a potential love interest.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 26, 2018 0:54:30 GMT
For my mystery series (not really cozies, but closer to police procedurals), I usually know what happened and who is responsible, though I don't have a detailed outline and I often don't know the killer's motivation until I'm the resolution. Some clues show up right away, but if necessary I go back and add in more clues and red herrings. As for characterisation, that's very important for my series. My detective and her team started out without a whole lot of characterisation, since I wasn't planning on writing a series. I just had an idea for a mystery and needed a detective, an assistant and a medical examiner. But over the course of this series, these characters have developed a lot and aquired families, partners, interests, hobbies, music tastes, etc... I even had two characters become a couple and found a boyfriend for my lead detective as well. The various witnesses, suspects, victims, etc... are usually only there for a single case, but they are definitely developed characters. But then, my detective mostly solves her cases by questioning witnesses and suspects, with some help from the forensics team. And I find that when I let my detective interview witnesses and suspects, their characters develop of their own accords. And if you get more than one suspect together in the same room, they start accusing each other and that's when the real fun starts. I'm toying with starting a cozier spin-off series focussed on a character who was a witness and briefly a suspect in a previous mystery. She's the kind of character who would make a great cozy protagonist, a woman who runs a New Age shop and has a cat. There's even a potential love interest. I love mysteries of all kinds. Both of your series sound good to me! I have bits and pieces of ideas for all sorts of different series and I have a few mystery plots worked out. I just haven't put everything together and actually written it yet. I feel like I'm going to do lots and lots of pre-planning/plotting and build it while I write. With my lesbians in space novella that I actually managed to write 40,000 words for, I pantsed my way through it, and once I reached the editing stage I found it absolutely overwhelming and impossible to edit it. My brain shorts out whenever I try to do anything with it. So I think if I'm going to write an actual mystery novel I'm going to have to ruthlessly plan everything and edit as I go. I'm still not sure how it will work out.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 26, 2018 3:20:57 GMT
I don't have scrivener, but I found this free template for writing a cozy mystery, so thought I would share. allfreelancewriting.com/scrivener-murder-mystery-novel-template/ I also found this 3-act template in my documents, so thought I'd share it as well. No idea where I got it. ^^^ Act 1 Present the Crime Introduce the Sleuth Offer Plausible Suspects Introduce Crime Complications Introduce Private Life Subplot Act 2 Initial Investigation and Interrogation reveals clues Disappearance of one suspect Raise the stakes Development of subplot Act 3 Reveal hidden motives of stakeholders Unsatisfying solution reached Return to overlooked clue from act one Resolution of subplot Confrontation with perpetrator I thought maybe it might have come from Elizabeth Spann-Craig, my favorite cozy author, so I went to her website, and I didn't find it after a few seconds search, but I did find this which comes with a free outline to download, which I thought was pretty darn cool, so am sharing it, as well. elizabethspanncraig.com/mystery-writing-tips/outlining-cozy-mystery/
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 26, 2018 3:58:37 GMT
An interview I found on YT with Elizabeth Spann-Craig.
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Post by possiblyderanged on Aug 26, 2018 23:17:30 GMT
I got one the other day from Mel Corbett which seems pretty good. Might be the same one, I'm too lazy to go look. I'd been researching cozies, but I think I'm going to go more towards a supernatural mystery/suspense thing. I don't have the resources to do cozy covers and don't think I can learn to do my own. I'm not really fond of the painted cartoon kind of look, anyway. Not that there's anything wrong with them, or with cozies in general, just not really what I'm looking to do.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Aug 26, 2018 23:48:05 GMT
I got one the other day from Mel Corbett which seems pretty good. Might be the same one, I'm too lazy to go look. I'd been researching cozies, but I think I'm going to go more towards a supernatural mystery/suspense thing. I don't have the resources to do cozy covers and don't think I can learn to do my own. I'm not really fond of the painted cartoon kind of look, anyway. Not that there's anything wrong with them, or with cozies in general, just not really what I'm looking to do. You've got to go where your heart leads you! Supernatural Suspense is pretty fun, too. I love all the mystery/thriller categories, but I do think cozy is my favorite. Cozy covers are hard! I have no idea what I'm going to do when the time comes I need one. I've tried really hard so far to not pay for covers, but the cozy covers are usually my favorite part of the genre, so I really can't shirk it. I guess I'll have to burn out my savings for it, and hope I make enough to at least pay for the next cover after. Of course, first I have to finish. I've got the A plot planned out, but no subplots yet.
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Post by possiblyderanged on Aug 29, 2018 7:47:08 GMT
I think cozies could be a lot of fun to write, but I don't have any savings or any real income to put towards buying the covers. Not yet, anyway. Maybe if this monster of a book I'm working on does well, I can swing it.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Sept 21, 2018 1:33:14 GMT
Anyone want to chat about the differences between mysteries, crime capers, suspense, and thrillers? A mystery obviously has a mystery at the heart of it. If you can take out the mystery and there is still a story then it's not a mystery, but a book with mystery elements. I think thrillers tend to focus on worldwide conspiracies and end of the world shenanigans, so the stakes are much bigger. But I haven't read enough thrillers to know if this is totally accurate. Suspense, to me, is an element that all books should have which keeps you on the edge of your seat and wanting to know what happens next. In crime suspense the suspense is more powerful. I think good horror stories often have a strong suspenseful element, as well. I used to listen to an old radio show called "Suspense" which was really good although I only remember one episode really well. A man decided he wanted to commit the perfect murder, set himself up with a perfect alibi, then he killed a total stranger he had zero connection to or motive to kill. But then his conscious started eating at him until he couldn't stand it, so he went to the police, and confessed but they wouldn't believe him! So suspense seems to be a psychological factor, which makes sense, since the crimes/mysteries you see in romantic suspense tend to affect the main character much more psychologically than cause any outward harm. Crime capers seem to deal with a criminal and their mindset, the same way that the suspense radio show did, but sometimes they can be more humorous and lighthearted. Other times they might be more of a procedural and be dark and gritty and deal with how cops deal with crime. I'm not sure if there is always a mystery involved with these or not since I tend to stick to books labeled as mysteries. What's your understanding of the differences between the genres? Am I close or way off base?
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Post by gaylordfancypants on Sept 21, 2018 2:54:03 GMT
* Mystery - solving the mystery is the main focus of the story
* Thriller - constant or near-constant excitement, endless action
* Suspense - like a thriller but relatively low-key, not shoot-outs in the street but tense-confrontations in a crowd
* Caper - just a jokey version of a different genre, usually crime, not "jokey" as in entirely unserious, just that there's an element of lightheartedness even if the plot is serious; there's usually little real risk, the reader knows the heroes will more or less succeed.
Or at least that's how I'd define them.
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Post by corabuhlert on Sept 22, 2018 2:03:09 GMT
The way I understand it, the definitions are as follows:
Mystery: The protagonist is an investigator of some kind (police officer, PI, crime-solving cupcake baker, etc...) and the focus is on solving the mystery. Whodunnit and howdunnit are usually not known, though there are exceptions, e.g. the old Columbo TV series. Lots of subgenres such as cozy, hardboiled, international, etc...
Police procedural: The focus is on the investigation and how it is conducted. The protagonists are police officers or forensic specialists. Think CSI.
Crime fiction: The focus is on the crime and how it is committed. There either is no investigator or the investigator is not the main character. Caper/heist: The focus is on the crime and how it is committed. The tone is often light and humorous, the protagonists hypercompetent criminals. Focusses on property crimes (thefts, robberies, cons) rather than murder and other violent crimes.
Noir: The focus is also on the crime, but the tone is bleak and cynical and pretty much everybody is not a very good person.
Thriller: The focus is on constant action and tension. The stakes are usually high, i.e. a single dead body isn't enough and the bad guys are often serial killers or terrorists. We often, though not always, know who the bad guy is and the focus is on how to stop them. Lots of subgenres such as crime thriller, action thriller, spy thriller, etc...
Suspense: Quieter and more atmospheric than thrillers. The focus is often on a crime victim or endangered person and how thy can protect themselves or find out who wants to hurt them and why. Romantic suspense: Suspense with a romance plot that ends in a HEA.
Legal thriller: The focus is on a court case and how to prove the accused's innocence. The protagonist is usually a lawyer.
I struggle with these definitions myself, because the American definitions of the various crime genres is so very different from the German ones. In Germany, it's simple. There is a mega-genre called "Krimi" (crime fiction), which covers what would be considered mysteries, crime fiction, suspense and thrillers in the US. "Thriller" is a subgenre of "Krimi" and closer to suspense than to what is considered a thriller in the US. There actually is a genre/subgenre called "mystery" in Germany, but it refers to supernatural and paranormal thrillers. The X-Files was labeled as "mystery" in Germany.
This was a problem, when trying to figure out into which categories to put my crime fiction, because it turned out that a lot of my crime stories weren't actually mysteries by US standards, even though they were "Krimis" by German standards. This meant that I had to classify them as crime fiction, a smaller and more obscure category.
BTW, at the Indie Crime Scene, we feature all of the various mystery/crime/thriller subgenres, so if you have anything along those lines, let me know.
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Post by K'Sennia Visitor on Sept 22, 2018 2:22:26 GMT
Wow, thanks for the excellent and thorough reply, corabuhlert! The Indie Crime scene is a cool site. *sympathies* for the cross-cultural confusions. Not that I've ever had to publish in other countries, but I'm sure if I did that having to relearn all the categories and everything would be annoying, and not fun.
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Post by corabuhlert on Sept 23, 2018 1:26:27 GMT
The genre differences aren't normally that extreme, for example Germans and Americans generally agree on what is science fiction, fantasy, historical fiction, etc..., though there are differences with regard to what is popular. We also have a genre that the rest of the world does not have, the so-called Heimatroman (homeland novel), usually melodramatic stories set in an alpine landscape. One of these days, I'm going to write one, if only because I have never done it.
The differences in the crime, mystery and thriller genres were something of a surprise to me, because it's not something you'd normally expect.
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